PRAWNS
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Scotland
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Talkdownman.....hear hear.
From a pilot's perspective, controllers that use degrees after everything, millibars after everything etc. conflicts with publicised rule and gets a lot of my colleagues confused and off down the same path of duplication. Surely this practice goes against the point of trying to minimise transmission times thus freeing up an already busy frequency? "Best Practice" is often thought-up by an individual, spread as gossip, and before we know it has cast the rule book in to historical oblivion.
If there are enough reported safety incidents by not using degrees, millibars etc. after every number then the rules will be changed. Until then, can't we all stick to the rule?
Would anyone in London care to offer a reason why frequencies such as 126.825 are read more often than not as "126.82", ie the old fashioned way? Sorry to single you out but it's the only Centre that still seems to use this practice in my experience.
From a pilot's perspective, controllers that use degrees after everything, millibars after everything etc. conflicts with publicised rule and gets a lot of my colleagues confused and off down the same path of duplication. Surely this practice goes against the point of trying to minimise transmission times thus freeing up an already busy frequency? "Best Practice" is often thought-up by an individual, spread as gossip, and before we know it has cast the rule book in to historical oblivion.
If there are enough reported safety incidents by not using degrees, millibars etc. after every number then the rules will be changed. Until then, can't we all stick to the rule?
Would anyone in London care to offer a reason why frequencies such as 126.825 are read more often than not as "126.82", ie the old fashioned way? Sorry to single you out but it's the only Centre that still seems to use this practice in my experience.
Join Date: Aug 2008
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can you select the final "5" as a frequency?
or does it fill this final digit automatically if the frequency ends 25 or 75?
Having not been in a cockpit since I was a trainee and at the time only interested in looking out of the window I have no idea what your frequency selection box thingy looks like. I was told that even if we read out the full 8.33 khz frequency, only 25khz spacing could be selected.
That is why I do not bother anyway.
or does it fill this final digit automatically if the frequency ends 25 or 75?
Having not been in a cockpit since I was a trainee and at the time only interested in looking out of the window I have no idea what your frequency selection box thingy looks like. I was told that even if we read out the full 8.33 khz frequency, only 25khz spacing could be selected.
That is why I do not bother anyway.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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PRAWNS
Why does it have to spell something. It doesn't have to be easy to remember, it is written on a plaque in front of you.
Memorable acronyms are used by pilots to remember lists when they are not available to see. An acronym which is written down in front of you is completely unnecesary and misses the whole point of an acronym.
It doesn't need to spell anything, it just needs to be a good handover for that particular position which could mean a different list on a different sector.
Why does it have to spell something. It doesn't have to be easy to remember, it is written on a plaque in front of you.
Memorable acronyms are used by pilots to remember lists when they are not available to see. An acronym which is written down in front of you is completely unnecesary and misses the whole point of an acronym.
It doesn't need to spell anything, it just needs to be a good handover for that particular position which could mean a different list on a different sector.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Originally Posted by Arch Stanton
An acronym which is written down in front of you is completely unnecesary and misses the whole point of an acronym.
Originally Posted by Arch Stanton
It doesn't need to spell anything, it just needs to be a good handover for that particular position which could mean a different list on a different sector.
Originally Posted by 2 sheds
A symptom of the mental processes of many in NATS nowadays
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Fargo Boyle
How else are you supposed to differentiate between (for example) 132.010 and 132.015 if you don't read out all 6 digits?
FWIW this was not a NATS specific instruction but a CAA one in accordance with the Eurocontrol plan for 8.33 frequency spacing.
Back to topic........ we tried PRAWNS but it didn't work for us so we switched to WEST - works better and has certainly led to a standardisation of handovers. I can still recall one controller who used to say 'it's a lovely day the traf is.....' That controller is now an SRG Inspector
DD
PS: Surely PRAWNS, WEST or whatever are Mneumonics not acronyms?
When .833 spacing was introduced we (London) were instructed that the full freq. must be read out, it has never been rescinded..
Yesterday 23:52
Yesterday 23:52
FWIW this was not a NATS specific instruction but a CAA one in accordance with the Eurocontrol plan for 8.33 frequency spacing.
Back to topic........ we tried PRAWNS but it didn't work for us so we switched to WEST - works better and has certainly led to a standardisation of handovers. I can still recall one controller who used to say 'it's a lovely day the traf is.....' That controller is now an SRG Inspector
DD
PS: Surely PRAWNS, WEST or whatever are Mneumonics not acronyms?
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acronym (noun)
an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word
mnemonic (noun)
a device such as a pattern of letters, ideas, or associations which assists in remembering something
To me PRAWNS is an acronym. It never assisted me to remember what it stood for. But the written checklist did...
an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word
mnemonic (noun)
a device such as a pattern of letters, ideas, or associations which assists in remembering something
To me PRAWNS is an acronym. It never assisted me to remember what it stood for. But the written checklist did...
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Roffa
Nobody is disputing that things can get missed on a handover and a checklist is required, but...
...can you tell me why the checklist has to spell anything, and why every sector has to have the same handover?
Nobody is disputing that things can get missed on a handover and a checklist is required, but...
...can you tell me why the checklist has to spell anything, and why every sector has to have the same handover?
Join Date: May 2006
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I wasn't involved in creating PRAWNS, though I knew the man who was, so have no idea why that particular acronym/mnemonic was used. I suppose PRAWNS is easier to remember than say WNSRAP. Though that may be moot if it's written down in front of you anyway.
I think the point though is that a consistently structured handover is a good idea.
If you have a better suggestion for a particular sector/group... make it known to those who deal with this sort of thing.
I think the point though is that a consistently structured handover is a good idea.
If you have a better suggestion for a particular sector/group... make it known to those who deal with this sort of thing.
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The point is it didn't work HD, there were incidents due to incomplete/inadequate handovers. I assume there are less since the introduction of PRAWNS else it would not have stuck.
But anyway, you've been out of it a long time and much has changed in the intervening years. Just consider yourself fortunate to be so and don't worry yourself too much about what happens now.
But anyway, you've been out of it a long time and much has changed in the intervening years. Just consider yourself fortunate to be so and don't worry yourself too much about what happens now.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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"Blues out, buffs in and the gays are in pink, got it, bye" 
Except in VHHH where its "Blues in, buffs out etc" Go figure.
Except in VHHH where its "Blues in, buffs out etc" Go figure.
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Roffa... I'm far from worried about these things; just curious. Judging from the PMs I get, people seem to be interested in my views, no matter how out-dated they appear! Level busts, runway incursions, PRAWNS - all unheard of 40 years ago but I'm not denying that problems do occur now... just curious as to why?