Why are so many controllers leaving Australia?
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Why are so many controllers leaving Australia?
Just wondering why so many controllers are leaving Australia for other places?
Is the regulator worried about being able to maintain the level of sevice (on a consistent basis) it provides ?
Should I reconsider before applying?
Thanks
Is the regulator worried about being able to maintain the level of sevice (on a consistent basis) it provides ?
Should I reconsider before applying?
Thanks
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Can't speak for anyone else, but
Better Money, lower cost of living, better lifestlye, move closer to the rest of the world, see more of the family, access to leave, better rosters...the list does go on....
Unsure of whether the regulator actually would be aware of the staffing situation in Aus at the moment and any future predictions.
It is a great career, had 15 wonderful years in OZ and you have to start somewhere. If you apply yourself and work hard you will get there, the training bond is for 5 yrs (I think) but most OS places wouldn't take you on with much less experience than that anyway.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Better Money, lower cost of living, better lifestlye, move closer to the rest of the world, see more of the family, access to leave, better rosters...the list does go on....
Unsure of whether the regulator actually would be aware of the staffing situation in Aus at the moment and any future predictions.
It is a great career, had 15 wonderful years in OZ and you have to start somewhere. If you apply yourself and work hard you will get there, the training bond is for 5 yrs (I think) but most OS places wouldn't take you on with much less experience than that anyway.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
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I'm wondering if this is a troll question.....
there are some BIG threads already about AsA - try reading through them and see if you can find some reasons in there
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...cancelled.html
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...-shortage.html
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ces-admit.html
there are some BIG threads already about AsA - try reading through them and see if you can find some reasons in there
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...cancelled.html
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...-shortage.html
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ces-admit.html
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<<Better Money, lower cost of living, better lifestlye,>>
Amazing. We've been to Oz twice and thought we'd died and gone to Heaven. Yet, drive around some really dirty, grim areas of London and you'll find the pubs full of Ozzies.....???? Why? Is the beer over here that good?
Amazing. We've been to Oz twice and thought we'd died and gone to Heaven. Yet, drive around some really dirty, grim areas of London and you'll find the pubs full of Ozzies.....???? Why? Is the beer over here that good?
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As someone who has left twice, I'll have a go. However, the reasons are going to vary and will be highly subjective. There are some things that are universal, though. Such as:
- The nature of the job. Like ANY job, eventually it is pretty boring. It's a great job, and sometimes you need reminding of that, but it's a job. AsA doesn't really excel at keeping people interested. In fact, for a long time, it has pursued the idea that a controller just sits in one chair, doing the same task/s, for ever. It was identified by one of my managers 10 years ago that he thought the biggest challenge AsA faced was staff retention because "we hire a bunch of smart people, teach them a complex task, then expect them to do that same thing for 35 years. Not going to happen." This is a biggy- people just get bored. Instead of moving them around, AsA are hell-bent on doing the opposite. Why? Because it costs more to re-train people over and over. Which leads me to....
-Obsession with costs/pretending AsA is a business.
Whilst this was necessary in order to remove public-service type waste and inefficiency when oz was emerging from those old 70s public-service practices, and was easy to do when there was lots of fat, but after years of 'trimming' the managers (who's remuneration relies on continual reductions) just start getting silly. Which leads to......
-Working OT. Management realised (like in many industries) that it's actually cheaper to run at 80% (give or take) of staff compliment, then work your 80% harder. Whilst this results in much larger pay packets, it starts to wear you down. There's nothing like securing a rare weekend off to be rung 9 times by work asking you to come in and plug the holes. There are many facets to this (such as- we do it to ourselves) but you get the drift.
-There is an enormous "us and them" culture in AsA. The controllers, and everyone else. It would seem that anyone who is not a controller views controllers as over-paid prima donas, and relish the opportunity to take them down a peg a two. This culture is tangible from the moment you start there, and is most evident in the gulf between management and controllers.
-The lying. Eventually, it WILL happen to you. "we'd just like you to do this job for 6 months, then you can do that"... "I dont remember saying that/that guy was not authorised to promise you that, so we can't/the needs of the business have changed....etc.etc". The worst is the blatant disregard of industrial agreements. I could go on for hours, but the gist is that AsA only considers an agreement binding if it favours them. This may seem an exaggeration, but I assure you it is not. Examples can be found publicly, such as at the IRC. Such as when AsA hires a controller on a contract in order to get around the award, despite there being an agreement (a binding agreement- the award) saying that "NO controllers shall be hired on contracts outside the award". The professional liars who work for AsA stand in front of the commissioner and say "we interpret that as meaning we can hire controllers on contract". I kid you not. This is just an example of that sort of practice, but it's part of the very management culture. The worst of it is when airspace closures happen due to staff shortages, and AsA will PUBLICLY denounce the controllers as causing the shortages/industrial action/lazy renegades etc etc. It's pretty hard to swallow. The controllers do huge amounts of OT to keep the place open, and that's how they spin it.
-The managers. Did I mention that already? The man-management at AsA is appalling. That is often due to some managers having never managed anything/worked at AsA their whole lives (and thus, believe the AsA culture is how things are done everywhere)/total sociopaths/worked at AsA long enough to have forgotten any other way of doing things/coming from a pool of people who almost ALL could do the job have to prove themselves something a little morethan the next guy. The satisfying thing is seeing the same practices applied to them that they use on others, at some point in their careers. It happens over and over. If you want an example of how out of touch the upper management is with the coal-face controller....Some years back, the CEO, in his column in the January edition of the monthly magazine opens with "I'd like to welcome you all back from your holidays, and trust that you are refreshed and ready for the challenges of the year ahead.......". WTF? The controllers, the core of the 'business', work 24/7 and were so short staffed that very,very little leave was available over the christmas/new year period, yet the **** has the temerity to spout that sort of stuff! Then wonders why people are grumpy! Just an example, but a very telling one.
Eventually, there is a straw....
Then, you have the lure of being able to take your skills OS. More money if that appeals to you, or just seeing the world, or broadening your work horizon. There are lots of international options, and as many reasons why people go. I'm just surprised that there aren't more who leave- although, the numbers do seem to be on the rise (and some bods who I never thought would leave, have!). It's just a shame that it is the way it is- it doesn't have to be like that.
ps. it's taken time to write this, but I think it's important that prospectives have some idea about things. You won't truly understand til you are inside yourself. Would I join AsA again, if I had my time over, knowing what I know now? Yes (if only to get the license
).
- The nature of the job. Like ANY job, eventually it is pretty boring. It's a great job, and sometimes you need reminding of that, but it's a job. AsA doesn't really excel at keeping people interested. In fact, for a long time, it has pursued the idea that a controller just sits in one chair, doing the same task/s, for ever. It was identified by one of my managers 10 years ago that he thought the biggest challenge AsA faced was staff retention because "we hire a bunch of smart people, teach them a complex task, then expect them to do that same thing for 35 years. Not going to happen." This is a biggy- people just get bored. Instead of moving them around, AsA are hell-bent on doing the opposite. Why? Because it costs more to re-train people over and over. Which leads me to....
-Obsession with costs/pretending AsA is a business.
Whilst this was necessary in order to remove public-service type waste and inefficiency when oz was emerging from those old 70s public-service practices, and was easy to do when there was lots of fat, but after years of 'trimming' the managers (who's remuneration relies on continual reductions) just start getting silly. Which leads to......
-Working OT. Management realised (like in many industries) that it's actually cheaper to run at 80% (give or take) of staff compliment, then work your 80% harder. Whilst this results in much larger pay packets, it starts to wear you down. There's nothing like securing a rare weekend off to be rung 9 times by work asking you to come in and plug the holes. There are many facets to this (such as- we do it to ourselves) but you get the drift.
-There is an enormous "us and them" culture in AsA. The controllers, and everyone else. It would seem that anyone who is not a controller views controllers as over-paid prima donas, and relish the opportunity to take them down a peg a two. This culture is tangible from the moment you start there, and is most evident in the gulf between management and controllers.
-The lying. Eventually, it WILL happen to you. "we'd just like you to do this job for 6 months, then you can do that"... "I dont remember saying that/that guy was not authorised to promise you that, so we can't/the needs of the business have changed....etc.etc". The worst is the blatant disregard of industrial agreements. I could go on for hours, but the gist is that AsA only considers an agreement binding if it favours them. This may seem an exaggeration, but I assure you it is not. Examples can be found publicly, such as at the IRC. Such as when AsA hires a controller on a contract in order to get around the award, despite there being an agreement (a binding agreement- the award) saying that "NO controllers shall be hired on contracts outside the award". The professional liars who work for AsA stand in front of the commissioner and say "we interpret that as meaning we can hire controllers on contract". I kid you not. This is just an example of that sort of practice, but it's part of the very management culture. The worst of it is when airspace closures happen due to staff shortages, and AsA will PUBLICLY denounce the controllers as causing the shortages/industrial action/lazy renegades etc etc. It's pretty hard to swallow. The controllers do huge amounts of OT to keep the place open, and that's how they spin it.
-The managers. Did I mention that already? The man-management at AsA is appalling. That is often due to some managers having never managed anything/worked at AsA their whole lives (and thus, believe the AsA culture is how things are done everywhere)/total sociopaths/worked at AsA long enough to have forgotten any other way of doing things/coming from a pool of people who almost ALL could do the job have to prove themselves something a little morethan the next guy. The satisfying thing is seeing the same practices applied to them that they use on others, at some point in their careers. It happens over and over. If you want an example of how out of touch the upper management is with the coal-face controller....Some years back, the CEO, in his column in the January edition of the monthly magazine opens with "I'd like to welcome you all back from your holidays, and trust that you are refreshed and ready for the challenges of the year ahead.......". WTF? The controllers, the core of the 'business', work 24/7 and were so short staffed that very,very little leave was available over the christmas/new year period, yet the **** has the temerity to spout that sort of stuff! Then wonders why people are grumpy! Just an example, but a very telling one.
Eventually, there is a straw....
Then, you have the lure of being able to take your skills OS. More money if that appeals to you, or just seeing the world, or broadening your work horizon. There are lots of international options, and as many reasons why people go. I'm just surprised that there aren't more who leave- although, the numbers do seem to be on the rise (and some bods who I never thought would leave, have!). It's just a shame that it is the way it is- it doesn't have to be like that.
ps. it's taken time to write this, but I think it's important that prospectives have some idea about things. You won't truly understand til you are inside yourself. Would I join AsA again, if I had my time over, knowing what I know now? Yes (if only to get the license
).
<<Better Money, lower cost of living, better lifestlye,>>
Amazing. We've been to Oz twice and thought we'd died and gone to Heaven. Yet, drive around some really dirty, grim areas of London and you'll find the pubs full of Ozzies.....???? Why? Is the beer over here that good?
Stay away!
We've got enough 65yo Poms over here already.
Try driving around some grim areas of ML and SY and you'll feel the same.
It's not all Bondi and Surfers P.
And it looks like you'll flog Pontings Pussies again.
AA
Amazing. We've been to Oz twice and thought we'd died and gone to Heaven. Yet, drive around some really dirty, grim areas of London and you'll find the pubs full of Ozzies.....???? Why? Is the beer over here that good?
Stay away!
We've got enough 65yo Poms over here already.
Try driving around some grim areas of ML and SY and you'll feel the same.
It's not all Bondi and Surfers P.
And it looks like you'll flog Pontings Pussies again.
AA
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ferris. OK, and as WE noted, most other ANSPs are similar! Just depends what you want out of life. I was absolutely, 100% contented doing the same job for most of my working life and never found it boring in any way, shape or form. Maybe it's because I worked at some interesting ATC units. However, the main incentive for me was the amazing amount of time off I had to spend with my wife and kids. Life isn't all work, although some of the "managers" I worked with seemed to think they had to be at work H24, not that they actually achieved much!!! Overtime is available in the UK, but I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole - who wants to be at work every day?
Whatever turns you on, I guess....
Whatever turns you on, I guess....
Seems to me that the "corporate style" and all that goes with it is infiltrating every area of our lives.
I can't help thinking that this is quite an evil process.
One wonders what happens when the managers have achieved their goal, and the only employees of any given organisation are software gurus, beancounters, and HR.
They're doing it to pilots, and have been for a while; it seems a logical step to progress the devaluation of a profession into other groups who are seen as specialist or overpaid.
I can't help thinking that this is quite an evil process.
One wonders what happens when the managers have achieved their goal, and the only employees of any given organisation are software gurus, beancounters, and HR.
They're doing it to pilots, and have been for a while; it seems a logical step to progress the devaluation of a profession into other groups who are seen as specialist or overpaid.
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HD, the thread is titled ".....leaving Australia". My insight is directed to that end. One of the features of working there is that you will probably not work on too many different sectors, let alone different units (as you mention). The career path used to be pretty clear; from college to a variety of en-route sectors, then arrivals for a few years, approach for 10 years, the the last ten years in a nice tower. It's very different now. As if the caliber of person required is also the type to be content on the same sector for 35 years! A bean-counters approach to man-management/staff development.
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HEATHROW DIRECTOR.... . However, the main incentive for me was the amazing amount of time off I had to spend with my wife and kids .....
This is so foreign a concept to me that it must be the reason people are headed overseas. Common roster practise is:
day one 1415-2300 [12hr break]
day two 1100-1900 [11 hr break]
day 3 morn 0600-1300 [10hr break] 2300 to 0600 day four
rest of day four - sleep - until 1600 when Asa can legally start asking you to come back and do overtime
day 5 - consider doing overtime
day 6 consider doing overtime
rinse/repeat....
[the other pattern ins 1200-2000, 0600-1400, 0600-1345 + 2330-0700]
I don't see my family for 4 days at a time... at least not when we are both awake
Airservices Australia despises its workforce at all levels above that of the console dwelling controller. I read the AsA testing thread on here and I just want to type in huge letters 'RUN AND DON'T LOOK BACK WHILE YOU CAN!!!' to all those poor suckers getting signed up today for an ever decreasing salary and conditions package.
EVERYTHING is always in AsA's favour and if not, they refuse to acknowledge the existence of any agreement be it collective or individual hand shake type arrangements. Retribution WILL be dealt if you are seen to be a spanner in the works of their plans no matter your reasons be they personal or otherwise.
I was quite happy at AsA in the grander sense for probably 10 years. I knew it was run by fools and made them fully aware I thought this but realy, did not care one way or the other and just took their money. Unfortunately for me, I left myself open for retribution one day. I accepted a position training elsewhere that I had not even applied for and due to circumstances, personal, related to the training and the trainers, I told them no thanks quite early on in the piece. My punishment was to be sent to Tops even though I had discussion as to my longer term ATC positioning that was certainly anything other than Tops. I told my new manager on Tops that I was decidedly unhappy with the idea and wanted out to which he advised that he would have me out in 12 months. 3 years later, I resigned when my new, new manager (actually may have been the 4th) told me that if I wanted out, and wanted him to do something for me, I had to do something for him. Appartently the 15 years of projects, instructing and specilist work did not count. I accepted my position overseas that afternoon.
In summary, if you do take a position as an Ar Traffic Controller with AsA or are currently employed as one, I guarantee that you WILL get shafted.... if you have not been already.
If you go looking, there are plenty of other jobs out there in the world. I had 4 to choose from when I took this one and dd not even throw my hat in the ring for the other 3 I was aware of.
I am not going to rehash the usual postings of those who have left with the justifications as to why but will just add that you may be extremely surprised as to what the rest of the world is realy like. It will very much be an individual experience as to whether that surprise is good or bad. Now, being on the otherside of the honeymoon period, I can quite sheepishly say that I am amazed I did not make a move earlier after accepting a gig and turning it down a few years ago.
EVERYTHING is always in AsA's favour and if not, they refuse to acknowledge the existence of any agreement be it collective or individual hand shake type arrangements. Retribution WILL be dealt if you are seen to be a spanner in the works of their plans no matter your reasons be they personal or otherwise.
I was quite happy at AsA in the grander sense for probably 10 years. I knew it was run by fools and made them fully aware I thought this but realy, did not care one way or the other and just took their money. Unfortunately for me, I left myself open for retribution one day. I accepted a position training elsewhere that I had not even applied for and due to circumstances, personal, related to the training and the trainers, I told them no thanks quite early on in the piece. My punishment was to be sent to Tops even though I had discussion as to my longer term ATC positioning that was certainly anything other than Tops. I told my new manager on Tops that I was decidedly unhappy with the idea and wanted out to which he advised that he would have me out in 12 months. 3 years later, I resigned when my new, new manager (actually may have been the 4th) told me that if I wanted out, and wanted him to do something for me, I had to do something for him. Appartently the 15 years of projects, instructing and specilist work did not count. I accepted my position overseas that afternoon.
In summary, if you do take a position as an Ar Traffic Controller with AsA or are currently employed as one, I guarantee that you WILL get shafted.... if you have not been already.
If you go looking, there are plenty of other jobs out there in the world. I had 4 to choose from when I took this one and dd not even throw my hat in the ring for the other 3 I was aware of.
I am not going to rehash the usual postings of those who have left with the justifications as to why but will just add that you may be extremely surprised as to what the rest of the world is realy like. It will very much be an individual experience as to whether that surprise is good or bad. Now, being on the otherside of the honeymoon period, I can quite sheepishly say that I am amazed I did not make a move earlier after accepting a gig and turning it down a few years ago.
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Overtime is available in the UK, but I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole
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Thanks All,
Really doesn't seem anyone has anything good to say, which probably explains the leaving.
Doesn't really look like they take care of their employees.
Looking at the other threads and the terrible process that people go through, even to get to training I think I will try somewhere else.
Thanks.
Really doesn't seem anyone has anything good to say, which probably explains the leaving.
Doesn't really look like they take care of their employees.
Looking at the other threads and the terrible process that people go through, even to get to training I think I will try somewhere else.
Thanks.
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Wow, so easily discouraged.
You obviously found what you were looking for...
And how long have you been rated?
By the looks of things on these forums it is your little dream, if you had to go through the whole process twice just to make it to the academy ASA must really be getting desperate.....
Some of us have other talents that lead to better careers with employers that probably look after their employees....
Maybe you need to get a life....
You obviously found what you were looking for...
And how long have you been rated?
By the looks of things on these forums it is your little dream, if you had to go through the whole process twice just to make it to the academy ASA must really be getting desperate.....
Some of us have other talents that lead to better careers with employers that probably look after their employees....
Maybe you need to get a life....
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QT - I was in the job for 31 years and enjoyed every moment of it. Most posters here will only post the negatives because it is a place to vent.
Sure ASA are not the world's best employer but they are not the worst either. Just look at the UAE threads, FAA, UK NATS and you will find the same complaints and gripes from those employees too.
The only way to know is to have a go. At least with ASA you'll get paid to train, most other organisations make you pay to get an endorsement. Here at DFS the trainee salary is much less than that on offer in Australia so dont be convinced by what you read here, make up your own mind.
I am returning cause I now know that as an employer ASA is just like many of the other ANSPs worldwide, but Australia is so much better a place to live!
Sure ASA are not the world's best employer but they are not the worst either. Just look at the UAE threads, FAA, UK NATS and you will find the same complaints and gripes from those employees too.
The only way to know is to have a go. At least with ASA you'll get paid to train, most other organisations make you pay to get an endorsement. Here at DFS the trainee salary is much less than that on offer in Australia so dont be convinced by what you read here, make up your own mind.
I am returning cause I now know that as an employer ASA is just like many of the other ANSPs worldwide, but Australia is so much better a place to live!
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Ferret you have nailed it, I don't think I have seen a better round up of the problems in ASA...ever.
Unfortunately for the "workers" in all industries we have become the whipping boys/girls of the latest class to hit the scene "the management class". (A century or so old now I admit but only just hitting their straps) Somehow they have convinced the world that the people who do the job cannot be trusted to get the job done. Politicians and stock holders have all been conned into believing that they need a university educated know-it-all in a suit to tell those that really know how to do the business, how to run a business. Just look at the GFC, all caused by smart-arses who could smell a cheap dollar. Where were the bank workers that knew that running a good business is about being honest and fair.
Anyway it does not matter where you look anymore, you will find plenty of CEOs and wannabe CEOs, plying their destructive trade. Promise the selection board everything they want, throw in a structural "change (doesn't matter if the workers saw that change 5 years ago) but above all make an enemy of "the union". Who by the way are always "the union" never representatives of their own employees, but you will all be used to that. The important thing is to have scape goat so when the CEO or wannabee moves on to the next sacrificial lamb his successes will be magnified and his failures the fault of "the union".
What can we do? Cross to the "dark side" although you have to live with yourself. Do what you love most and ignore the crap around you. If you feel strongly, join "the union" and take the battle to the enemy. Move overseas but be aware that CANSO exists to ensure that the bosses have a legitimate place to plot. Ignore the ****, work when you want, take sick leave inquisitions in your stride (what can they do make you a controller!), remember that revenge is a dish best served cold, and never never forget that you are working to have a life, not living to be at work.
Unfortunately for the "workers" in all industries we have become the whipping boys/girls of the latest class to hit the scene "the management class". (A century or so old now I admit but only just hitting their straps) Somehow they have convinced the world that the people who do the job cannot be trusted to get the job done. Politicians and stock holders have all been conned into believing that they need a university educated know-it-all in a suit to tell those that really know how to do the business, how to run a business. Just look at the GFC, all caused by smart-arses who could smell a cheap dollar. Where were the bank workers that knew that running a good business is about being honest and fair.
Anyway it does not matter where you look anymore, you will find plenty of CEOs and wannabe CEOs, plying their destructive trade. Promise the selection board everything they want, throw in a structural "change (doesn't matter if the workers saw that change 5 years ago) but above all make an enemy of "the union". Who by the way are always "the union" never representatives of their own employees, but you will all be used to that. The important thing is to have scape goat so when the CEO or wannabee moves on to the next sacrificial lamb his successes will be magnified and his failures the fault of "the union".
What can we do? Cross to the "dark side" although you have to live with yourself. Do what you love most and ignore the crap around you. If you feel strongly, join "the union" and take the battle to the enemy. Move overseas but be aware that CANSO exists to ensure that the bosses have a legitimate place to plot. Ignore the ****, work when you want, take sick leave inquisitions in your stride (what can they do make you a controller!), remember that revenge is a dish best served cold, and never never forget that you are working to have a life, not living to be at work.