ATCO working as ATSA
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: UK
ATCO working as ATSA
Hi guys
Just looking for a bit of advice really.
I self-funded myself through an ADI course at the Cwmbran training college and unfortunately despite my best efforts I have been unable to secure a job as a trainee ATCO at an airfield.
I have started to look at jobs as an assistant as I am looking to get a foot in the door and think with the job market being so competitive at the moment, maybe I am being overly ambitious in hoping for an ATCO position.
My main question is this: As I have a student license with an ADI (and ADV) rating, does this qualify me as an assitant? Or would I still need to go through the assistants' training course at either Cwmbran or Astec?
Also, what's the situation regarding a Met Observer's Certificate?
Your help would be greatly appreciated!
Just looking for a bit of advice really.
I self-funded myself through an ADI course at the Cwmbran training college and unfortunately despite my best efforts I have been unable to secure a job as a trainee ATCO at an airfield.
I have started to look at jobs as an assistant as I am looking to get a foot in the door and think with the job market being so competitive at the moment, maybe I am being overly ambitious in hoping for an ATCO position.
My main question is this: As I have a student license with an ADI (and ADV) rating, does this qualify me as an assitant? Or would I still need to go through the assistants' training course at either Cwmbran or Astec?
Also, what's the situation regarding a Met Observer's Certificate?
Your help would be greatly appreciated!
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,266
Likes: 1
From: Berkshire, UK
Wonder why you went the DIY way instead of NATS? However, I hope all pans out OK.
I am not aware of a requirement for a recognised training course for ATSA (but I'm probably wrong!). The job does not require any particular qualification other than those which may be imposed by the employer for their own reason. The job varies so much depending on the ATC unit and employer that a paid-for training course can only cover basic information which you probably know already, having completed an ATCO course.
Met Observer's Certificate is a recognised qualification requiring a short training course. See here: Met Office: Met observer training
Many airfields use ATCOs or ATSAs to provide weather observations in the absence of professional observers.
I am not aware of a requirement for a recognised training course for ATSA (but I'm probably wrong!). The job does not require any particular qualification other than those which may be imposed by the employer for their own reason. The job varies so much depending on the ATC unit and employer that a paid-for training course can only cover basic information which you probably know already, having completed an ATCO course.
Met Observer's Certificate is a recognised qualification requiring a short training course. See here: Met Office: Met observer training
Many airfields use ATCOs or ATSAs to provide weather observations in the absence of professional observers.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 111
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From: UK
Like HD said there is no official qualification required to be a ATCA, most of the small to medium airports do in house training.
It would be a good way of getting your foot in the door and any good employer would hopefully consider you for a ATCO'S position in the future.
Good luck
It would be a good way of getting your foot in the door and any good employer would hopefully consider you for a ATCO'S position in the future.
Good luck
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 251
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From: That France
I can think of quite a few chaps who have worked as ATSAs whilst being qualified as ATCOs - so yes it is, or certainly was possible.
There's a gotcha - I can't offhand think of any who weren't ATSAs after having been chopped as ATCOs. That's not to say there weren't any, but......
There's a gotcha - I can't offhand think of any who weren't ATSAs after having been chopped as ATCOs. That's not to say there weren't any, but......
niknak
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,335
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From: UK
It's not beyond the realms of possibility to get a job as an ATSA having got the ADI rating, but you are up against a huge amount of competition from existing employees at airports who are the usual suspects when it comes to filling existing ATSA vacancies.
Most, but not all, regional airports advertise and recruit from within or will invite external applicants who have already applied speculatively if there isn't enough internal interest.
It's worth enquiring with every non NATS airport to see if they would employ you at a nominal rate (£1 per year or so) just to allow you to validate the rating within a fixed period of time.
You may even be able to negotiate subsequent employment as part of the deal if you are succesful. I know that will be at your expense but it would prove how genuine you really are. This has been done elsewhere in the past but is very rare these days.
To be frank with you, the reason you are not a very marketable commodity at the moment is because you only have the ADI/ADV rating, without stating the totally obvious you need at least the APS and preferably the APP rating as well.
I know that involves a huge investment on your behalf but, if you were taken on as an ATSA, you would be on a relatively poor salary for at least 18 - 24 months before you would be considered (with no solid guarantee) for further training at most units.
If you invested in the APS rating I would wager that you'd regain the costs much sooner by being more employable and thereby commanding a much higher salary.
Alternatively, have you actually applied to NATS or Eurocontrol?
Anyway, the best of luck to you and let us know how you get on.
Most, but not all, regional airports advertise and recruit from within or will invite external applicants who have already applied speculatively if there isn't enough internal interest.
It's worth enquiring with every non NATS airport to see if they would employ you at a nominal rate (£1 per year or so) just to allow you to validate the rating within a fixed period of time.
You may even be able to negotiate subsequent employment as part of the deal if you are succesful. I know that will be at your expense but it would prove how genuine you really are. This has been done elsewhere in the past but is very rare these days.
To be frank with you, the reason you are not a very marketable commodity at the moment is because you only have the ADI/ADV rating, without stating the totally obvious you need at least the APS and preferably the APP rating as well.
I know that involves a huge investment on your behalf but, if you were taken on as an ATSA, you would be on a relatively poor salary for at least 18 - 24 months before you would be considered (with no solid guarantee) for further training at most units.
If you invested in the APS rating I would wager that you'd regain the costs much sooner by being more employable and thereby commanding a much higher salary.
Alternatively, have you actually applied to NATS or Eurocontrol?
Anyway, the best of luck to you and let us know how you get on.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3
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From: Portadown
On the NATS website they say 3% of applicants get right though. Roughly what % ATSA's are likely to secure training posts and how long would they typically be in the job, before consideration? What qualifications/training do you need to be ATSA?
Are second time applicants likely to be looked at more favourably because of there persistence?
Are second time applicants likely to be looked at more favourably because of there persistence?
StandupfortheUlstermen
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,182
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From: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
TatcClassOf09 - for a profession which has historically been short of qualified staff, it pains me to hear of people who go through self funded courses but then come up against a brick wall. That said, I have known guys who have self funded and got in somewhere or at least been offered a place at an airfield and done well from it. Keep trying, even for an ATSA post, I know of two people who worked as ATSAs after passing rating courses who trained at the unit they worked at in their own time and validated. Both work for NATS now and one has become a Watch Manager. Just don't give up and apply for every unit which advertises, even if you don't have everything they want.
p_robinson80 - NATS recruitment don't make specific allowances for applicants who are ATSAs but for anyone who has been an ATSA, it can only help through having more knowledge of the ATC system than those who haven't had any aviation background. I don't personally know any ATSAs who took 'ATSA qualifications' (whatever they are!?) before becoming an ATSA. If you can read, write and communicate properly (if you were educated at a NI grammar school, you've got a headstart there!), then a smattering of GCSEs will be enough. Most ATSAs I know under 40 got into the job either by failing in training at NATS, or at non NATS airport units, by applying from within.
As for your last question, not as far as I know.
p_robinson80 - NATS recruitment don't make specific allowances for applicants who are ATSAs but for anyone who has been an ATSA, it can only help through having more knowledge of the ATC system than those who haven't had any aviation background. I don't personally know any ATSAs who took 'ATSA qualifications' (whatever they are!?) before becoming an ATSA. If you can read, write and communicate properly (if you were educated at a NI grammar school, you've got a headstart there!), then a smattering of GCSEs will be enough. Most ATSAs I know under 40 got into the job either by failing in training at NATS, or at non NATS airport units, by applying from within.
As for your last question, not as far as I know.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Portadown
STANDARD NOISE
Sorry I may have confused you with the way I delivered the previous question.
How likely/common are ATSA's to be offered ATCO training by the company(PEEL, SERCO, (any other names?)) in a non-NATS operated airport? (I'm understanding from reading the threads, in general there is no such thing as ATSA's at NATS operated airports?)
How many years experience would I need as an ATSA before the company would consider me?
Or are there now more qualified ATCO's per vacant posts so they are less likely to train up ATSA's?
I recently done the first stage of NATS recruitment at Prestwick, unfortunately didn't get through (I thought the test had went well for me, and I'm not the arrogant/dillusional type, but was disappointed when the results came back negative.They don't give any feedback so its difficult to tell how far away I was from the standard required). Basically I'm now trying to find the best way into the job as I still reckon I'd be able to do it.
Sorry for all the questions, but any help is greatly appreciated.
Sorry I may have confused you with the way I delivered the previous question.
How likely/common are ATSA's to be offered ATCO training by the company(PEEL, SERCO, (any other names?)) in a non-NATS operated airport? (I'm understanding from reading the threads, in general there is no such thing as ATSA's at NATS operated airports?)
How many years experience would I need as an ATSA before the company would consider me?
Or are there now more qualified ATCO's per vacant posts so they are less likely to train up ATSA's?
I recently done the first stage of NATS recruitment at Prestwick, unfortunately didn't get through (I thought the test had went well for me, and I'm not the arrogant/dillusional type, but was disappointed when the results came back negative.They don't give any feedback so its difficult to tell how far away I was from the standard required). Basically I'm now trying to find the best way into the job as I still reckon I'd be able to do it.
Sorry for all the questions, but any help is greatly appreciated.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Portadown
Alpha
You can give me the best advice then on how to go forward after NATS recruitment chop. What way did you go about it and was that the best way or is there a better way now?
Do NATS get their qualified students to repay the training fee to a certain extent. I was looking at the Irish Aviation Authority and if you leave before 4 years service there are certain amounts repayable. Worst case scenario is that they're looking 85000 euro
http://www.iaa.ie/files/2010/docs/co...CP9_100820.pdf
You can give me the best advice then on how to go forward after NATS recruitment chop. What way did you go about it and was that the best way or is there a better way now?
Do NATS get their qualified students to repay the training fee to a certain extent. I was looking at the Irish Aviation Authority and if you leave before 4 years service there are certain amounts repayable. Worst case scenario is that they're looking 85000 euro
http://www.iaa.ie/files/2010/docs/co...CP9_100820.pdf
StandupfortheUlstermen
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
From: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Indeed they are Chevvron, it's just a shame their own union don't think so!
p_robinson80 - nothing in life is guaranteed, however I know of several ATSAs who've been given that chance. It's happened at all of the non NATS units where I was employed (including Belfast City). Bristol (pre NATS) had a long and successful history of training up ATSAs. But here's the thing, I've also seen non ATSA grades get the chance as well. The non NATS airfields often cast the net throughout the wider airport staff and some even trawl through business partners (ie airlines) to try finding the best trainee ATCO candidates.
Best advice I could give you is try NATS again and at some point (before or after the next NATS application, but preferably before) try to get a job at Belfast City working for the airport itself, visit ATC, show interest and let them know you are interested in applying for NATS, then wait for them to trawl the airport staff for trainee ATCOs. They've done it many times and been successful at it.
p_robinson80 - nothing in life is guaranteed, however I know of several ATSAs who've been given that chance. It's happened at all of the non NATS units where I was employed (including Belfast City). Bristol (pre NATS) had a long and successful history of training up ATSAs. But here's the thing, I've also seen non ATSA grades get the chance as well. The non NATS airfields often cast the net throughout the wider airport staff and some even trawl through business partners (ie airlines) to try finding the best trainee ATCO candidates.
Best advice I could give you is try NATS again and at some point (before or after the next NATS application, but preferably before) try to get a job at Belfast City working for the airport itself, visit ATC, show interest and let them know you are interested in applying for NATS, then wait for them to trawl the airport staff for trainee ATCOs. They've done it many times and been successful at it.
You trying to put the boy off ew?Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,266
Likes: 1
From: Berkshire, UK
SS10. OK... I've been through it all, albeit log ago. Trick I used was to ring the airfield and tell the operator that I was writing a letter to the SATCO, or Manager, and would they please tell me his name. Sometimes they would just put me through to ATC, who were just as helpful. I was never refused this information.
Good luck.
Good luck.