2000ft separation in London TMA

[Hotel Mode]

///Westerly arrs fm LAM and BNN holds expect later descent clearance fm 5000ft due tempo ATC op proc til Aug 312359.

Hi guys. Much wailing and knashing of teeth elsewhere about this NOTAM. Thought I'd ask here for clues.

I gather due to biz jets not flying the LCY SID correctly and one particular airlines problems with cleared levels and flying TCAS RAs that separation has been increased to 2000ft around LCY.

Unless the controller gets the call in at exactly the right moment for descent (virtually impossible due RT load) its going to make for some scrappy ILSs especially from non based outfits who arent expecting it. That and a whole load of noise as a) aircraft level at 5000ft over the East End and b) Gear goes down at 15dme to catch up with the disappearing glideslope and we end up dragging in over west London.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Better that than have an aluminium shower.....

[Hotel Mode]

Better that than have an aluminium shower.....

I agree, but on that basis we need 2000ft separation anywhere aircraft are climbing and descending at high rates. ie most of the world. .

It also prevents the TEAM dual runway ops that so much effort has been expended introducing.

Maybe a good look at why the 2 incidents causing the ruling involved errors by non UK bizjets out of city and a certain carriers 777s may be more useful though?

All the LHR based operators are furious, sounds from elsewhere that the controllers arent chuffed either. Do the people making these decisions in NATS have recent operational experience or just recent **** covering experience?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hotel Mode. I don't know why except that I knew it was happening. I know there were a few "dodgy" events in the area in question before I retired and that was nearly 8 years ago.

Unless procedures have changed I don't know why the procedure should affect the use of both runways for landing but it's better that someone current should comment on that aspect.

[Talkdownman]

Separation standards are minima. I am pleased to see that nats has finally woken up to this LCY problem. The stepped SIDs from the LCY westerly runway were always fraught with level-bust risk. Leave aircraft on the SID and there would be occasional high ROC level busts especially by high performance biz-jets. In the past inexperienced nats investigators and inexperienced nats managers with little knowledge of the operation expected the Thames controllers to intervene during a 'bust' as a safety net. Fail dangerous. One only has to read some of the pathetic un-enlightened incident reports. Some Thames controllers were fed up with these busts and stopped each departure at a simple and straightforward 3000ft in an unsupported effort to prevent them. Pilots, however, sometimes climbed to 4 at the 3 to 4 point regardless believing the stop to be a SID step reminder rather than a maximum level. These are dangerous nats SIDs about which very little has been done about over two decades. An accident waiting to happen and has always been thus since '87. Outrageous.

[Vino Collapso]

Leave aircraft on the SID and there would be occasional high ROC level busts especially by high performance biz-jets.

Rubbish. These are procedures conforming to ICAO standards. If pilots are unable to control their ROC then that is a flight deck issue not a procedures one.

To apply 2000 feet separation is a gross reduction of airspace capacity in an areas where airspace capacity is at a premium.

[zkdli]

Talkdown man your knowledge of the subject makes me wonder why you didn't do something about it when you knew what the solution was.
Did you take your thoughts to those inexperienced investigators or the procedures department and if you did what did they say?
Not sure that you are right about Thames controllers taking an unsupported stand - there has been a tactical stop on London city SIDS published by Ops since 2006 and it still didn't reduce the risk

[dhc83driver]

Aerad in big bold 3000, with extra note!

LCY Atis "all london city departures level at 3000 feet"

Every departure clearance given "cleared to altitude 3000 feet" with a read back.

Sometimes before take off clearance "climb altitude 3000 feet"

First contact with Thames " maintain altitude 3000 feet"

They can`t make it any clearer!!

If pilots can`t understand this then they need some serious retraining.

[Red Four]

Couldn't find this NOTAM. Anyone know the number of it?

[Hotel Mode]

Full NOTAM now reads:

A1653/10 NOTAMN
Q) EGTT/QPICH/I /NBO/A /000/999/5129N00028W005
A) EGLL B) 1006061415 C) 1006141100
E) A NEW ATC PROC IS IN PLACE FOR FOR INBD ACFT VIA BNN AND LAM.
WHEN EGLL AND EGLC ARE BOTH ON WESTERLY OPS, ARR FROM THE NORTH WILL
NOT BE DESCENDED BELOW 5000FT UNTIL OR UNLESS THEY ARE WI 15NM OF
TOUCHDOWN. THIS IS TO ENHANCE SAFETY BY PROVIDING AN ADDITIONAL
BUFFER FM EGLC DEP AGAINST EGLL ARR BECAUSE OF A NUMBER OF RECENT
INCIDENTS INVOLVING A LVL BUST BY TFC USING THESE TWO AIRPORTS
CREATED: 06 Jun 2010 14:15:00
SOURCE: EUECYIYN

Is trial stopping tomorrow now?

[Red Four]

Thanks HM.
It reads as if the level bust incidents were not just LC deps, but LL inbound traffic also.

[zkdli]

Red Four you are correct

[timelapse]

I believe the suspension of TEAM is only until controllers are more familiar with the procedure.

And yes, as far as I am aware, it's come in because of an incident on both sides, one city level bust upwards and one LL inbound level bust downwards

[Roffa]

I believe the suspension of TEAM is only until controllers are more familiar with the procedure.

TEAM is not suspended on westerlies but it may not be seen as often as before.