Heading read back
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Heading read back
Hi ATC,
I've asked this before but I can't find the thread, can any of you guys clairify something for me. When you instruct us to "turn left/right xx degrees" are we required to give you the new heading.
I appreciate the airmanship side to this question, some would say yes, read the new heading back. But I have noticed that you sometimes say "turn left/right xx degrees, report new heading", and sometimes you don't. So, could you please give me a diffinitive answer to whether we are required to read back the new heading if you don't say "report new heading"
Many thanks.
I've asked this before but I can't find the thread, can any of you guys clairify something for me. When you instruct us to "turn left/right xx degrees" are we required to give you the new heading.
I appreciate the airmanship side to this question, some would say yes, read the new heading back. But I have noticed that you sometimes say "turn left/right xx degrees, report new heading", and sometimes you don't. So, could you please give me a diffinitive answer to whether we are required to read back the new heading if you don't say "report new heading"
Many thanks.
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On a related issue.
Say my current heading is 006 and you tell me to turn left 5, do you want 001 or are you happy with 000. Similar on 006 and right five. Happy with 010 or do you want 011?
The only reason i ask is i'm often the handed on to the next sector on the heading and after a visit to an area control centre i was told when given a heading they would round up/down to the nearest 5, but trainers i've been with in the past have given me a rollocking for turning more/less than the stated 5/10 degrees.
Say my current heading is 006 and you tell me to turn left 5, do you want 001 or are you happy with 000. Similar on 006 and right five. Happy with 010 or do you want 011?
The only reason i ask is i'm often the handed on to the next sector on the heading and after a visit to an area control centre i was told when given a heading they would round up/down to the nearest 5, but trainers i've been with in the past have given me a rollocking for turning more/less than the stated 5/10 degrees.
In practice, other than possibly when doing an SRA, I doubt that the 1 degree difference would matter or be noticed by the controller.
(Mind you, I don't have the luxury of mode S - those that do may disagree!
)
(Mind you, I don't have the luxury of mode S - those that do may disagree!
)
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I personally prefer to know the exact heading with no rounding up or down as, when dabbling along the edges of danger areas or close proximity of other sector boundaries, having a 3 or 4 degree divergence makes a difference over 80 miles. I do normally impose exact headings but at the start of shift finding out the centreline headings is the initial task and when I'd use "turn left/right xx degrees". If I wanted to know the new heading, I'd ask.
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Goodness, where's your 80nm long sector?
As a long time LTC, I've always taught 'turn the requested number of degrees - it's the change of heading (track) that controller is seeking here, but quote the heading rounded to the nearest five.' Thus, the quoted should never be more than two degrees different from the actual heading, and that's 2nm off after sixty, but I guess that if you see a divergence from desired track you're going to issue a heading adjustment long before that's critical.
In the alternative ATC heading scenario, against reciprocal traffic then you're going to give a specific heading, and that's exactly what you'll get.
As a long time LTC, I've always taught 'turn the requested number of degrees - it's the change of heading (track) that controller is seeking here, but quote the heading rounded to the nearest five.' Thus, the quoted should never be more than two degrees different from the actual heading, and that's 2nm off after sixty, but I guess that if you see a divergence from desired track you're going to issue a heading adjustment long before that's critical.
In the alternative ATC heading scenario, against reciprocal traffic then you're going to give a specific heading, and that's exactly what you'll get.
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Hi.
new heading not needed... unless requested.
no rounding up or down... one or two degrees can make a difference down the line.
yes there might be time for corrections and a lot of controllers build in extra buffers anyway.. but what's the point.
new heading not needed... unless requested.
no rounding up or down... one or two degrees can make a difference down the line.
yes there might be time for corrections and a lot of controllers build in extra buffers anyway.. but what's the point.
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Pontius's Copilot - If you can be 2nm off after 60, so can the one next to you. If I'm aiming for 6, that can give me a range from 10 to 2. I'd rather play the exact game and not have to constantly check if your heading is working every 30 seconds, I haven't got the time. Aiming for 6 and getting 10 - there isn't enough room for that always & the next sector may not be quite so appreciative of getting 2 aircraft that far apart in my world, aiming for 6 and getting 2 doesn't even need mentioning.
My average sector length is 60nm however it is possible to have aircraft for up to 90nm of their journey on frequency. In the UK enroute environment, I work some of the shorter sectors.......
My average sector length is 60nm however it is possible to have aircraft for up to 90nm of their journey on frequency. In the UK enroute environment, I work some of the shorter sectors.......
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Any other inputs by ATCO's?
As a pilot, in the cruise, I would give headings to the degree (ABC123, FL350, heading 123 degrees). As mentionned earlier on, a few degrees on longer distances can become an issue for separation....
On approach, if I am asked to report the heading before being vectored, I would give the heading to the nearest 5 (real heading is 123, I would say 125 degrees). On shorter distances, I guess a couple of degrees isn't gonna make a big difference + I always got told that controllers work with headings ending in 0 or 5.
As a pilot, in the cruise, I would give headings to the degree (ABC123, FL350, heading 123 degrees). As mentionned earlier on, a few degrees on longer distances can become an issue for separation....
On approach, if I am asked to report the heading before being vectored, I would give the heading to the nearest 5 (real heading is 123, I would say 125 degrees). On shorter distances, I guess a couple of degrees isn't gonna make a big difference + I always got told that controllers work with headings ending in 0 or 5.
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If you are heading 123, then tell me that figure. It is likely that if I subsequently give you a turn it will be to a heading ending in 5 or 0, but that's just because it's easier for me to use against other aircraft.
Also I suppose ultimately if I just want you to continue on your heading and I am trying to match someone else with you, I would like to know if you are actually heading 123. It makes a difference what heading I put the other guy on (I might choose 120 rather than 125).
Also I suppose ultimately if I just want you to continue on your heading and I am trying to match someone else with you, I would like to know if you are actually heading 123. It makes a difference what heading I put the other guy on (I might choose 120 rather than 125).
