No departure instructions issued -- right visual OK without asking?
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No departure instructions issued -- right visual OK without asking?
Hi all,
One question came up today, with regards to visual departures: it has come to my attention, that if you are flying a visual departure, with a right turn out, that right turn needs to be specified, or requested. The rationale being that a left turn is standard for all departures -- even if you are cleared to somewhere that would normally be a right turn.
Given the example today, clearance was "cleared to Arrivalville airport via direct, flightlevel 160, squawk 1234". No departure procedure specified, no SIDs on the departure airport, only company climbout. Controlled airport, airspace D. IFR flight, weather severe CAVOK, departure from runway 24, track to Arrivalville airport ca 325, ie a right turn would be the shortest.
So what is correct, and why? Ie, where is it specified? Some options:
1) Fly the company climbout to MSA and then turn on course (because you are not cleared for a visual departure -- but then again, you are not, word by word, cleared for the company climbout either, and how does the tower know where that goes? Obviously they do, because this is our home base and we fly it quite often, but let's say it's not the case)
2) Fly visually, do a left 270-degree turn towards destination (because left turns are standard)
3) Fly visually and turn right towards destination (because your destination is to the right)
4) Others? (except the obvious "just ask them", because in over 1 year from flying out from here, we've never received any departure instructions other than altitude or clearance limit instructions)
I'm thinking 3), because your clearance limit is your destination at Arrivalville, and no departure instructions have been issued. However there's so many people that disagree with me I'm quite certain I'm wrong! But I'd like to know where it says. Always learning!
One question came up today, with regards to visual departures: it has come to my attention, that if you are flying a visual departure, with a right turn out, that right turn needs to be specified, or requested. The rationale being that a left turn is standard for all departures -- even if you are cleared to somewhere that would normally be a right turn.
Given the example today, clearance was "cleared to Arrivalville airport via direct, flightlevel 160, squawk 1234". No departure procedure specified, no SIDs on the departure airport, only company climbout. Controlled airport, airspace D. IFR flight, weather severe CAVOK, departure from runway 24, track to Arrivalville airport ca 325, ie a right turn would be the shortest.
So what is correct, and why? Ie, where is it specified? Some options:
1) Fly the company climbout to MSA and then turn on course (because you are not cleared for a visual departure -- but then again, you are not, word by word, cleared for the company climbout either, and how does the tower know where that goes? Obviously they do, because this is our home base and we fly it quite often, but let's say it's not the case)
2) Fly visually, do a left 270-degree turn towards destination (because left turns are standard)
3) Fly visually and turn right towards destination (because your destination is to the right)
4) Others? (except the obvious "just ask them", because in over 1 year from flying out from here, we've never received any departure instructions other than altitude or clearance limit instructions)
I'm thinking 3), because your clearance limit is your destination at Arrivalville, and no departure instructions have been issued. However there's so many people that disagree with me I'm quite certain I'm wrong! But I'd like to know where it says. Always learning!
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During an IFR flight you are performing an instrumental departure. Why would you make some 'visual' turns if you are (or at least can be) in a total IFR conditions. You've received clearance direct the aerodrome, so you should turn (after some runway heading climb to clear from obstacles etc.) direct to nav aid supporting that aerodrome, whatever it might be.
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By the way, company climbout is a slight left turn (about 10 degrees) for 3 miles, then right turn back to the field, and when reaching 3000' (usually right before the 3 mile turn anyway), climb on track.
Thing is, in nice daylight, VMC conditions, it's not necessary or practical to fly 3 miles in the wrong direction before turning on course. And since that's what the instrument procedure says, an early turn must be a visual turn, hence a visual departure, correct?
Thing is, in nice daylight, VMC conditions, it's not necessary or practical to fly 3 miles in the wrong direction before turning on course. And since that's what the instrument procedure says, an early turn must be a visual turn, hence a visual departure, correct?
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In my opinion, the only 'visual' things during an IFR flight can be a visual approach and descent with own separation from other traffic during daylight in VMC. Departure is always instrumental. If there are no other aerodrome-specific regulations, then RWY heading is supposed to get you clear from obstacles if you maintain procedure designed gradient. This is the only 'instrumental' way to get above minimum sector altitude, unless some other specific regulations are provided - a SID or aerodrome-specific climbout procedure due to surrounding terrain. At MSA you can safely initiate the turn, because it's guaranteed that you are clear from obstacles around you. Of course, nobody will complain if you start the turn earlier, I can't imagine any reason why ATC should bother - if ATC has some traffic in the air close to runway, then they will force you to continue rwy heading until some altitude anyway, or at least provide with traffic information. If you are in VMC and feel comfortable to initiate the turn earlier, from ATC point of view it's no problem. But theoretically the only 'right' way to do it is, in my opinion, to cross MSA at rwy heading or follow SID or other specific procedure if published.
In fact, as seen from the tower and on the radar screen, every aircraft departs in his own way, however as a general rule you can observe that the worse the weather, the longer rwy heading segment is used, even by 'local' hot-shot pilots that in VMC always try to overfly the tower during departure.
In fact, as seen from the tower and on the radar screen, every aircraft departs in his own way, however as a general rule you can observe that the worse the weather, the longer rwy heading segment is used, even by 'local' hot-shot pilots that in VMC always try to overfly the tower during departure.
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There are visual departures (or initial visual segments on instrument departures), LPMA comes to my mind, although I don't know their latest procedures. But it shouldn't matter in the case above - having simply received direct to clearance, you should simply turn direct in closest direction, after reaching safe height. Assuming is usually not the best solution
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Just out of curiosity, if you are performing a visual departure (first I've heard of such a thing btw, though not surprisingly... 
) are you as pilot then ensuring visual separation to other aircraft, or are you relying on TWR/APP for separation?
My (very cheap) 2c: At my college in the cold, snowy northern lands, the blip drivers always turn left when flying visual unless instructed otherwise, in reference to Doc 4444 (or maybe Annex 2, don't remember
) - as all a/c in the vicinity of an aerodrome should make all turns to the left, unless local procedures state otherwise, even if this means a doing a 270-degree turn, usually over the the airfield.
Personally, if I were to give that instruction, I would expect the A/C to climb on RWY heading until obstacle clearance is achieved, then turn in any direction that will allow it to proceed direct to Arrivalville. In this case the "visual" aspect of the departure is that the pilot is now in charge of obstacel clearance, but not separation. It seems to me that a direct routing under IFR rules means just that: a direct route. It surprises me that ATC would allow a company climbout using such a "wavy" route, i.e. first out, climb a bit, come back, then proceed on track, when the instructions are "direct". As you say, how does TWR know what the copmany climbout is? It could change one day, and TWR sould be sc
ed. Could just be me, I'm still pretty green 
) are you as pilot then ensuring visual separation to other aircraft, or are you relying on TWR/APP for separation?My (very cheap) 2c: At my college in the cold, snowy northern lands, the blip drivers always turn left when flying visual unless instructed otherwise, in reference to Doc 4444 (or maybe Annex 2, don't remember
) - as all a/c in the vicinity of an aerodrome should make all turns to the left, unless local procedures state otherwise, even if this means a doing a 270-degree turn, usually over the the airfield.Personally, if I were to give that instruction, I would expect the A/C to climb on RWY heading until obstacle clearance is achieved, then turn in any direction that will allow it to proceed direct to Arrivalville. In this case the "visual" aspect of the departure is that the pilot is now in charge of obstacel clearance, but not separation. It seems to me that a direct routing under IFR rules means just that: a direct route. It surprises me that ATC would allow a company climbout using such a "wavy" route, i.e. first out, climb a bit, come back, then proceed on track, when the instructions are "direct". As you say, how does TWR know what the copmany climbout is? It could change one day, and TWR sould be sc
ed. Could just be me, I'm still pretty green
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Thank you for all your answers.
With regards to "straight ahead to MSA" that would be unacceptable for us for performance reasons; there is rising terrain off the end of the runway, so in IMC with engine failure, that would take us into a smoking hole possibly. So the company climbout procedure, which is also the company engine failure procedure, goes down a valley for some distance, before turning back towards the field. However normally we reach MSA before the turning point, so we would climb on track instead of turning towards the field.
However in day VMC, severe CAVOK conditions, it doesn't make operational sense to fly several miles in the wrong direction before turning on course. In the event of an engine failure, we would obviously be ok to maneuver visually away from terrain.
So what I'd like to do is to climb straight ahead to say 1000' AGL before turning on course, which would be to the right. However it's not charted anywhere, but the company climbout isn't a published chart either.
With regards to visual departures I'm surprised to see that I've yet to find a reference to it anywhere; it's so common to request it/be given a visual departure I haven't questioned it.
With regards to "straight ahead to MSA" that would be unacceptable for us for performance reasons; there is rising terrain off the end of the runway, so in IMC with engine failure, that would take us into a smoking hole possibly. So the company climbout procedure, which is also the company engine failure procedure, goes down a valley for some distance, before turning back towards the field. However normally we reach MSA before the turning point, so we would climb on track instead of turning towards the field.
However in day VMC, severe CAVOK conditions, it doesn't make operational sense to fly several miles in the wrong direction before turning on course. In the event of an engine failure, we would obviously be ok to maneuver visually away from terrain.
So what I'd like to do is to climb straight ahead to say 1000' AGL before turning on course, which would be to the right. However it's not charted anywhere, but the company climbout isn't a published chart either.
With regards to visual departures I'm surprised to see that I've yet to find a reference to it anywhere; it's so common to request it/be given a visual departure I haven't questioned it.
Visual departures fall well into the realm of the norm where I work, as do visual approaches.
Traffic and weather permitting, of course.
In response to a previous question, the pilot is responsible for terrain clearance when on a visual depaarture or approach. Traffic separation will depend on the airspace/type of ATC service provided. In a Class C CTR, ATC will provide separation from all traffic. In Class D, ATC will provide separation from other IFR flights, and information on known VFR flights in the vicinity.
Local procedures may vary these general rules.
IMO if in doubt, or the departure has not been specified, it is always wise to either advise ATC of the departure you intend to make, or simpy ask.
As a controller, if it matters, I specify a route/restriction/whatever for any segment of a flight, from taxi out to aircraft released to the next sector. That is part of what I'm paid to do.
I will normally specify a route (or specify something like "at pilots' discretion") even if it doesn't matter, the rationale being: Why exist in a state of doubt? (Flight crew or ATC.) If something unusual or unexpected can happen, it generally will, sooner or later.
Traffic and weather permitting, of course.
In response to a previous question, the pilot is responsible for terrain clearance when on a visual depaarture or approach. Traffic separation will depend on the airspace/type of ATC service provided. In a Class C CTR, ATC will provide separation from all traffic. In Class D, ATC will provide separation from other IFR flights, and information on known VFR flights in the vicinity.
Local procedures may vary these general rules.
IMO if in doubt, or the departure has not been specified, it is always wise to either advise ATC of the departure you intend to make, or simpy ask.
As a controller, if it matters, I specify a route/restriction/whatever for any segment of a flight, from taxi out to aircraft released to the next sector. That is part of what I'm paid to do.
I will normally specify a route (or specify something like "at pilots' discretion") even if it doesn't matter, the rationale being: Why exist in a state of doubt? (Flight crew or ATC.) If something unusual or unexpected can happen, it generally will, sooner or later.
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But in IMC you wouldn't be performing visual departure, so the initial question doesn't apply.
This is all airport and company specific. Where I work, almost all companies simply use 400ft AGL before turning, although MSAs are around 1800-2300ft AGL depending on sector. There is no terrain though, only "city obstacles".
And btw., I know you said you're not inclined to ask local ATC, but that's what I would in fact suggest. Reason is, judging from your description, you might be both in a loop - they never clarify, because you always fly in the same way, and you never ask, because they always give you the same clearance. Some day it might occur you actually assumed different things. Or it might be a shortcoming on your on their side in terms of procedures or training - for example TWR giving you clearance as they always did, without giving much thought to it.
This is all airport and company specific. Where I work, almost all companies simply use 400ft AGL before turning, although MSAs are around 1800-2300ft AGL depending on sector. There is no terrain though, only "city obstacles".
And btw., I know you said you're not inclined to ask local ATC, but that's what I would in fact suggest. Reason is, judging from your description, you might be both in a loop - they never clarify, because you always fly in the same way, and you never ask, because they always give you the same clearance. Some day it might occur you actually assumed different things. Or it might be a shortcoming on your on their side in terms of procedures or training - for example TWR giving you clearance as they always did, without giving much thought to it.
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I did actually call the tower and talked to the guy in charge (at least at that shift), and we had a friendly chat about it. He wasn't really able to clarify it for me, he said he obviously knew about our climbout procedure since we are based at the airfield, and he would normally expect us to fly that one. However, he said, that in good, clear, CAVOK conditions, he expected us to turn visually on course, since that's what we usually do. When I asked him if we had to specify a visual right turn he said he wasn't sure; he thought he had seen it somewhere that a left turn was standard, but he also said he would be surprised if we actually did that (when a right turn would be more direct).
So I'm not sure, I can't find anything in our ops manuals, the guy in the tower doesn't have a definite answer, ask two senior captains that have two completely different answers, and then even more different answers here... That's why I'm wondering if there's ever been printed anything seemingly official with regards to this
So I'm not sure, I can't find anything in our ops manuals, the guy in the tower doesn't have a definite answer, ask two senior captains that have two completely different answers, and then even more different answers here... That's why I'm wondering if there's ever been printed anything seemingly official with regards to this
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So the safest way would seem for the ATC side to publish some sort of procedure. Simple "direct to" seems ok only if terrain is not a consideration and it's obvious you'll turn the shortest way.
In absence of it, I would state my intentions (in a short manner, like "cleared for take-off, right/left turn", so there's no ambiguity).
Out of curiosity, is it radar environment?
In absence of it, I would state my intentions (in a short manner, like "cleared for take-off, right/left turn", so there's no ambiguity).
Out of curiosity, is it radar environment?
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been looking through the Annex 2 a bit, and would "guess" on this.
3.2.5
An aircraft operatied on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall, whether or not within an areodrome traffic zone:
c) make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise instructed.
Now, as an IFR flight, you must have adherence to the flightplan, which in most cases contains a SID for departure. In the SID again, turns are specified to be left or right. The SID again are confirmed by the tower in a clearance, and therefor right turns are formally specified and accepted in departure.
For a Visual Departure, the navigation are on pilots responsibility and not on the ATC. The SID are not used and it is then not specified anywhere that a right turn is accepted.
My conclusion is then: that visual departure require an approval to do a right turn out.
3.2.5
An aircraft operatied on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall, whether or not within an areodrome traffic zone:
c) make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise instructed.
Now, as an IFR flight, you must have adherence to the flightplan, which in most cases contains a SID for departure. In the SID again, turns are specified to be left or right. The SID again are confirmed by the tower in a clearance, and therefor right turns are formally specified and accepted in departure.
For a Visual Departure, the navigation are on pilots responsibility and not on the ATC. The SID are not used and it is then not specified anywhere that a right turn is accepted.
My conclusion is then: that visual departure require an approval to do a right turn out.
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Thank you for all your replies!
criss: negative radar. Radar coverage only with area control, we usually get radar identified around FL100, give or take.
mssandvik: no SIDs or DPs are published in the AIP or in our Jepps, although I've heard it's coming....sometime...
criss: negative radar. Radar coverage only with area control, we usually get radar identified around FL100, give or take.
mssandvik: no SIDs or DPs are published in the AIP or in our Jepps, although I've heard it's coming....sometime...
