T9/16 airway
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T9/16 airway
Hey,
I've already done a research here in the forum and opened a similar thread, but can somebody confirm that pilots need an ocanic clearance when joining the airways T9/16 north - and southbound?
I've already done a research here in the forum and opened a similar thread, but can somebody confirm that pilots need an ocanic clearance when joining the airways T9/16 north - and southbound?
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You'll receive an Oceanic Clearance comprising the cleared route, the level and speed to be maintained from Oceanic entry at, for example, LASNO/BEGAS, OMOKO/NAVIX. Carriage of HF is mandatory and check your RVSM approval and MNPS certification re. filed cruising level.
In the case of T9 (both directions) and going south on T16 you should request Oceanic clearance from Shanwick 30-90 minutes prior to boundary ETA. (I suspect Santa Maria will be similar in respect of NAVIX).
Clearance request should comprise estimate for boundary position, requested level and mach no. and, in addition, the maximum level you are able to accept at the boundary. (Should your requested FL be unavailable, it's always good for ATC to know what you might accept as a higher alternative).
Oceanic is Class A airspace and the procedural environment dictates that cleared routes, levels and speeds must be strictly adhered to. Any alteration to these in the enroute phase must be done so via request to ATC, even for something as simple as changing your speed by +/- M0.01.
I'd suggest some more background reading from official sources before you head that way. Good luck.
In the case of T9 (both directions) and going south on T16 you should request Oceanic clearance from Shanwick 30-90 minutes prior to boundary ETA. (I suspect Santa Maria will be similar in respect of NAVIX).
Clearance request should comprise estimate for boundary position, requested level and mach no. and, in addition, the maximum level you are able to accept at the boundary. (Should your requested FL be unavailable, it's always good for ATC to know what you might accept as a higher alternative).
Oceanic is Class A airspace and the procedural environment dictates that cleared routes, levels and speeds must be strictly adhered to. Any alteration to these in the enroute phase must be done so via request to ATC, even for something as simple as changing your speed by +/- M0.01.
I'd suggest some more background reading from official sources before you head that way. Good luck.
Last edited by rab-k; 14th Jan 2010 at 21:10. Reason: My Kingdom for a spellchecker...
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here's some background reading for you
MNPSA
UK CAP694
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20694.pdf
Since Shanwick is outside the IFPS zone, ensure your flight plan is addressed correctly using the "AD" line on the flight plan
Shanwick AFTN Address (EGGXZOZX). Santa Maria address (LPPOZOZX) when sending your flight plan to eurocontrol for processing
rab-k is correct for santa maria NAVIX estimate, requested flight level and mach number and maximum acceptable level.
Requests for oceanic clearance northbound on T16 via NAVIX will be made to Santa maria on HF frequencies 3016,5598 8906 (depending on the frequencies they are using)
requests for clearance northbound on T9 (via BEGAS) will also be via HF shanwick in this case, southbound - use VHF
MNPSA
UK CAP694
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20694.pdf
Since Shanwick is outside the IFPS zone, ensure your flight plan is addressed correctly using the "AD" line on the flight plan
Shanwick AFTN Address (EGGXZOZX). Santa Maria address (LPPOZOZX) when sending your flight plan to eurocontrol for processing
rab-k is correct for santa maria NAVIX estimate, requested flight level and mach number and maximum acceptable level.
Requests for oceanic clearance northbound on T16 via NAVIX will be made to Santa maria on HF frequencies 3016,5598 8906 (depending on the frequencies they are using)
requests for clearance northbound on T9 (via BEGAS) will also be via HF shanwick in this case, southbound - use VHF
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This website covering North Atlantic Flight Planning
http://www.worldairops.com/NAT
has a document entitled "Use of Shanwick Oceanic T9 and T16 routes to avoid French Airspace"
which seems to cover most of the questions here ....
http://www.worldairops.com/NAT
has a document entitled "Use of Shanwick Oceanic T9 and T16 routes to avoid French Airspace"
which seems to cover most of the questions here ....
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In the case of T9 (both directions) and going south on T16 you should request Oceanic clearance from Shanwick 30-90 minutes prior to boundary ETA. (I suspect Santa Maria will be similar in respect of NAVIX).
Clearance request should comprise estimate for boundary position, requested level and mach no. and, in addition, the maximum level you are able to accept at the boundary. (Should your requested FL be unavailable, it's always good for ATC to know what you might accept as a higher alternative).
Cheers!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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A quick 'q' for ATC - often Spanish area radar would try to 'issue' northbound T9 clearance while I was waiting for Shanwick to respond and BEFORE SH had actually issued the clearance on HF. I used to 'decline' to accept the clearance on VHF from area radar as it appeared to contradict company SOPs which were that the clearance should be obtained from the controlling authority. I did query this informally with Shanwick and they said I was correct. Spain kept on trying. Any opinions?
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At the Northern end, we get a copy of your clearance once Shanwick has composed it or sent it... So it should be the same at the Southern end... But technically you should get it from and read it back/acknowledge it (via data link/acars etc) to Shanwick. You will have to confirm the clearance in some way with Shanwick even if Spanish ATC give it to you and you read it back to them.
We sometimes get requests from Shanwick for a/c to call them back (as they didn't get the readback properly) or give you the clearance or to get the readback ourselves on their behalf (maybe this is what is happening?). There are of course days where the HFs maybe dodgy at best so transferring the clearance on VHF is way easier; but you should be told the clearance is on relay from Shanwick etc to avoid confusion.
Additionally it is possible that the copy we have isn't the one they actually issue, ie they work it out but before issuing it then get more info where a 'reclearance' is needed. So I wouldn't give you or attempt to unless specifically requested by Shanwick. We also get copies of all reclearances but it's pretty easy to miss variations if we are jumping in without being asked; especially if you are still in direct contact with oceanic clearance issue controllers.
We sometimes get requests from Shanwick for a/c to call them back (as they didn't get the readback properly) or give you the clearance or to get the readback ourselves on their behalf (maybe this is what is happening?). There are of course days where the HFs maybe dodgy at best so transferring the clearance on VHF is way easier; but you should be told the clearance is on relay from Shanwick etc to avoid confusion.
Additionally it is possible that the copy we have isn't the one they actually issue, ie they work it out but before issuing it then get more info where a 'reclearance' is needed. So I wouldn't give you or attempt to unless specifically requested by Shanwick. We also get copies of all reclearances but it's pretty easy to miss variations if we are jumping in without being asked; especially if you are still in direct contact with oceanic clearance issue controllers.
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Thanks Blockla - SOPs I am used too require:
1) Clearance FROM Oceanic control
2) All pilots listen to (and confirm) same
3) Readback to Oceanic
Hence my 'refusal'. I have NEVER had that sort of stuff from Shannon
1) Clearance FROM Oceanic control
2) All pilots listen to (and confirm) same
3) Readback to Oceanic
Hence my 'refusal'. I have NEVER had that sort of stuff from Shannon
