Basic Service Outside CAS

[anotherthing]

Adam,

Just because you should not 'expect' traffic info, it does not mean you will not get it. The sentence you quote suffers from the nuances of written and spoken English. 'Expectation' implies that all traffic should be called out to you. MATS part 1 states that if there is deemed to be a risk to a flight, then that flight will be warned.

You do not have to have any service at all in Class F or G, but common sense states you do take one. Why? so you can be warned if there is a hazard to your flight.

That's what a BS is primarily there for. Alongside the BS, TS, or DS you get an Alerting Service (for free). If you do not make yourself known, then the ATCO will not transmit information that is not perinent to aircraft he is talking to... therefore you may miss some info that could impact your flight.

Your statement

No matter how you slice this or interpret this, this is the achilles heel of this system. There seems to be zero need for BS. Either remove it, or upgrade it so BS = TS.

Shows a lack of understanding of what the LARS and ATSOCAS system is about, and how it works. There is a place for BS within the system. Maybe a visit to an ATC unit will enlighten you (as far as I'm concerned it should be mandatory in the PPL).

[AdamFrisch]

I would love to come to ATC and I also agree that this should be mandatory in training for any license.

I might have had gaps in my understanding having revalidated an old Swedish PPL in England (I think newer PPLers get a better grip of it). But for me the words Basic Service would imply that there is some kind of service given. You must agree that it's a bit strange having a service that is given...maybe. Or sometimes. Or when we're not too busy.

Now, of course I'm going to continue calling up my LARS service because they've been very helpful in the past. But I was wrongly relaxing a bit before I fully knew what BS entailed. I thought they were looking out for me. I will not relax anymore. In fact, crossing over in the corridor to the north of LCY I will from now on try to upgrade that service to TS as I know it can become mad busy there.

I still don't understand why BS is provided in a non-radar ATZ/CTZ. There they can't even tell you about a conflict even if they wanted to because they don't know. It's just confusing to use the same name as a completely different sometimes-provided one in a radar service.

[anotherthing]

But for me the words Basic Service would imply that there is some kind of service given

Adam I agree but there is, it's a Flight Information and Alerting Service. Unfortunately someone in their wisdom decided that instead of tackling the real issue of education, a (very minor) re-vamp of the services and a re-naming of them should be carried out.

It has not helped reduce confusion - in fact it may even have added to it.

The idea of BS and giving you traffic information is as much to do with duty of care than anything else. We all know pilots should brief themselves on NOTAMS etc before getting airborne, but sometimes things are missed. If an ATCO, even a non radar position, can give you an inflight warning of say 'caution, 30 flying pigs in the vicinity of McDonald's Farm, up to 3000ft', then surely that's better than nothing and it's worth the check in. Also, if you happen to be flying from a private strip, VFR OUTCAS, checking in with a unit can help if, Heaven forbid, you have a catastrophic problem.

With a FIS you knew exactly what it meant - Flight Information Service - a service giving information pertinent to the safe and efficient conduct of your flight etc etc.

TS and DS might actually be better descriptives of RIS and RAS, but that does not remove the fact that pilots and ATCOS alike should be fully conversant with what they can get or give with either, or how a 'contract' between the pilot and ATCO is actually achieved or changed .

The system is a mess, albeit the 3 services do have a very valid place. Unfortunately the change has only muddied the waters further.

[mr grumpy]

Adam,
'But I was wrongly relaxing a bit before I fully knew what BS entailed'

Indeed you were wrongly relaxing. May I suggest that assuming ATC will do some of your work for you in lieu of being alert, irrespective of the service you are receiving, is wrong. The pilot is responsible for the safety of his/her aircraft, not ATC. The service ATC provides is an additional safety feature, not a replacement for lookout and good airmanship.

[VectorLine]

Anotherthing;

With a FIS you knew exactly what it meant - Flight Information Service - a service giving information pertinent to the safe and efficient conduct of your flight etc etc.

How do you know exactly what it meant from that description? Does it include traffic information?, can you use radar? What else does it include?

Information pertinent to the safe and efficient conduct of your flight - what's that? The price of fuel at destination and alternate would help with efficiency but that's not included.

The fact is, lots of people thought they knew what FIS was, but didn't. So the services needed to be re-defined. Changing the names helped stimulate the education.

If you still think FIS is a nice clear service level - go and read the ICAO description of Flight Information Service in section 9 of PANS-ATM. That's Doc 44444 if you want a reference.

VL

[chevvron]

But also read para 8.11 'Use of radar in the Flight Information Sevice'.
NB Its' Doc 4444 not 44444!

[anotherthing]

VectorLine - which means it all comes down to education... ATSOCAS services are in no better position now than they were before the change.

You can change things as often as you want, but if people are ignorant of the meaning, then it is pointless!

[Talkdownman]

What service do aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers provide?
(There could be a clue in the title...... )