Non-NATS ATC Tower training
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Non-NATS ATC Tower training - Help needed
I need some advice on how to get training in Tower and possibly approach outside of the NATSs system.
I have completed a common core course but now want to move onto Tower training, any ideas?
Also, where would I look for an ATSA job at the moment?
Thanks in advance,
Kev
I have completed a common core course but now want to move onto Tower training, any ideas?
Also, where would I look for an ATSA job at the moment?
Thanks in advance,
Kev
Last edited by kevpem; 22nd Dec 2009 at 21:29.
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Try Serco (Middle Wallop, Wattisham, Battersea, Cranfield, Scatsta), Marshalls (Cambridge), Peel(Liverpool & Doncaster), MAG(East Mids, Humberside & Bournemouth), also Southend, Manston & Warton worth a go.
ap
ap
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If you want to get an ADI rating, I know both the BAe college at Cwmbran and Astac provide training. I understand the courses (and the prices) can be changed if you've already completed part of the course elsewhere (the common core).
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Alternatively you could try this route.
Airports like Bournemouth were advertising for an ATCA job recently, if you show a bit of aptitude and state your intentions for wanting to become an ATCO, then if they have the position they would train you up.
A bit long winded but at least you'll get to see if it is what you want to do and you'll make priceless contacts for other places.
Airports like Bournemouth were advertising for an ATCA job recently, if you show a bit of aptitude and state your intentions for wanting to become an ATCO, then if they have the position they would train you up.
A bit long winded but at least you'll get to see if it is what you want to do and you'll make priceless contacts for other places.
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Kev,
sorry if it comes as a blow, but accept reality and recognise that, at 31, your only hope is to self sponsor through ASTAC or Cwmbran.
You'll need to to be able to pay for at least the ADI rating and probably the APS rating as well, many non NATS airfields require the APC rating as well if they haven't got UTP Level 2 approval in place.
You stand very little chance of getting an ATSA post anywhere, most regional airports don't need to advertise, they already have a very long list of local applicants a lot younger and cheaper than you who they can employ.
Those are the facts, you will have to beg, steal or borrow to get in the industry at your age.
It takes a huge commitment, but if, after reading the above, you feel that you can invest a large bank loan in yourself and accept that at any stage (including a week before the end of a course), you can be chopped and lose everything, then go for it.
If not, accept the facts and do something else.
Good luck to you.
sorry if it comes as a blow, but accept reality and recognise that, at 31, your only hope is to self sponsor through ASTAC or Cwmbran.
You'll need to to be able to pay for at least the ADI rating and probably the APS rating as well, many non NATS airfields require the APC rating as well if they haven't got UTP Level 2 approval in place.
You stand very little chance of getting an ATSA post anywhere, most regional airports don't need to advertise, they already have a very long list of local applicants a lot younger and cheaper than you who they can employ.
Those are the facts, you will have to beg, steal or borrow to get in the industry at your age.
It takes a huge commitment, but if, after reading the above, you feel that you can invest a large bank loan in yourself and accept that at any stage (including a week before the end of a course), you can be chopped and lose everything, then go for it.
If not, accept the facts and do something else.
Good luck to you.
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Hmmm...
I am not yet sure that you did Kev or anyone else any favours by that piece submitted on Christmas Eve.
You talk of 'facts' and reality, as in black and white perhaps?
Dare to substitute a few words differentiating colour for your few words differentiating age, and I am sure you'd certainly agree you'd have a very offensive piece of writing that wouldn't last five minutes on this website.
How then is it still acceptable to relate ageist rhetoric as facts? NATS no longer dare do that, but perhaps you know something they don't about what goes on in the rest of UK ATC?
The reality is that publishing a possibly misguided piece seems to acknowledge that widespread unlawful age discrimination goes on outside NATS.
With post-Christmas hindsight and goodwill, might you now care to offer a more enlightened picture of non-NATS UK ATC recruitment practices for our friend Kev?
Or might you be inclined to do something else?
I am not yet sure that you did Kev or anyone else any favours by that piece submitted on Christmas Eve.
You talk of 'facts' and reality, as in black and white perhaps?
Dare to substitute a few words differentiating colour for your few words differentiating age, and I am sure you'd certainly agree you'd have a very offensive piece of writing that wouldn't last five minutes on this website.
How then is it still acceptable to relate ageist rhetoric as facts? NATS no longer dare do that, but perhaps you know something they don't about what goes on in the rest of UK ATC?
The reality is that publishing a possibly misguided piece seems to acknowledge that widespread unlawful age discrimination goes on outside NATS.
With post-Christmas hindsight and goodwill, might you now care to offer a more enlightened picture of non-NATS UK ATC recruitment practices for our friend Kev?
Or might you be inclined to do something else?
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Whatever anyone says, training in ATC is better done when one is young. OK, half a dozen people are going to write that they validated on Gatwick GMC when they were 60.... Sure, there are a few like that but they are few and far between.
I don't know much about current ATC training but when the originator said he had completed a "Common Core Course", was that in NATS and, if so, why did he leave?
I don't know much about current ATC training but when the originator said he had completed a "Common Core Course", was that in NATS and, if so, why did he leave?
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 26th Dec 2009 at 18:10.
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HD,
You just can't expected the freedom to publish views like that anymore without being immediately challenged for holding views which if practiced by a recruiter immediately puts the recruiter outside the law.
Would you come on here and argue that East Asians have a genetic predisposition to being more suited to some cerebrally challenging jobs than other less cerebrally-abled people? Or that Tuskagee airmen were more reliable than other bomber escorts because of some genetic predisposition? Or that Michael Jackson was more marketable later in his career as a result of specific aspects of the way he had changed his looks?
No you would not, and the time has come to think of a better reason to publish here than your old hardcoded ideas about the attributes of older or younger members of the candidate workforce.
You might have been a better candidate for ATC when you were a young man, and so might I, but I might still be a better candidate than you ever were, and if I were, I might not simply be an exception. Maybe I was far more capable in the first place and maybe I have taken care of myself better.
I say some of this with tongue in cheek of course, but it is well past time to find something other than age as a proxy for ideas of failure please.
You just can't expected the freedom to publish views like that anymore without being immediately challenged for holding views which if practiced by a recruiter immediately puts the recruiter outside the law.
Would you come on here and argue that East Asians have a genetic predisposition to being more suited to some cerebrally challenging jobs than other less cerebrally-abled people? Or that Tuskagee airmen were more reliable than other bomber escorts because of some genetic predisposition? Or that Michael Jackson was more marketable later in his career as a result of specific aspects of the way he had changed his looks?
No you would not, and the time has come to think of a better reason to publish here than your old hardcoded ideas about the attributes of older or younger members of the candidate workforce.
You might have been a better candidate for ATC when you were a young man, and so might I, but I might still be a better candidate than you ever were, and if I were, I might not simply be an exception. Maybe I was far more capable in the first place and maybe I have taken care of myself better.
I say some of this with tongue in cheek of course, but it is well past time to find something other than age as a proxy for ideas of failure please.
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slip and turn. I wish you "anonymous" posters would put something in your profile so the rest of us know what/who we are dealing with. I am assuming that you are not involved professionally in aviation..
I don't care if people are old, young, black, white, yellow, red, Catholic or Church of Scotland Excused Boots. They're all humans to me. However, I did train Air Traffic Controllers on and off for 35 years at busy and quiet units, both at home and abroad in 5 different skills so I feel adequately qualified to offer an opinion.
Air Traffic Control is a skilled job and one's ability to undertake skilled tasks often diminishes with age. This was ably demonstrated to me on Christmas Day when my 12 yr-old grandson invited me to partcipate in one of his electronic games. I didn't stand a chance, any more than I would if I tried to do the job I did all my life, because I'm too old.
Yes, undoubtedly there are people who can do the job in later years - I worked all three Heathrow Director positions on the day I retired at 58 and I knew several people at Heathrow who did all Tower and all Radar positions on the day they retired at a similar age. BUT, I could also name half a dozen fully-validated controllers who had to pack it in before they were 50 because things got too difficult for them, and I most certainly could never have worked any Tower positions at that age.
Please, don't suggest that my opinion discriminates against a particular age-group. I just don't want the originator of this thread spending a fortune without knowing certain facts.
I don't care if people are old, young, black, white, yellow, red, Catholic or Church of Scotland Excused Boots. They're all humans to me. However, I did train Air Traffic Controllers on and off for 35 years at busy and quiet units, both at home and abroad in 5 different skills so I feel adequately qualified to offer an opinion.
Air Traffic Control is a skilled job and one's ability to undertake skilled tasks often diminishes with age. This was ably demonstrated to me on Christmas Day when my 12 yr-old grandson invited me to partcipate in one of his electronic games. I didn't stand a chance, any more than I would if I tried to do the job I did all my life, because I'm too old.
Yes, undoubtedly there are people who can do the job in later years - I worked all three Heathrow Director positions on the day I retired at 58 and I knew several people at Heathrow who did all Tower and all Radar positions on the day they retired at a similar age. BUT, I could also name half a dozen fully-validated controllers who had to pack it in before they were 50 because things got too difficult for them, and I most certainly could never have worked any Tower positions at that age.
Please, don't suggest that my opinion discriminates against a particular age-group. I just don't want the originator of this thread spending a fortune without knowing certain facts.
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HD,
You may have trained ATCOs for 35 years and you may have your opinion, and I respect your undoubted experience and knowledge, but you are sailing very close to the prevailing wind if you are implying that recruiters and candidates should take your word as gospel and allow any recruitment, training or advancement decisions to be based on the sorts of things you assert about age. In this day and age that just will not do at all, Sir
We have law which makes it extremely adviseable that employers concentrate on finding other ways to choose who they take on and promote
I am afraid you'll just have to get used to that, no matter how it might grate. Or perhaps you might harbour views such that you believe that there should not only be a free vote in the next Parliament to repeal the Foxhunting Act, but also one to repeal the Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006?
You may have trained ATCOs for 35 years and you may have your opinion, and I respect your undoubted experience and knowledge, but you are sailing very close to the prevailing wind if you are implying that recruiters and candidates should take your word as gospel and allow any recruitment, training or advancement decisions to be based on the sorts of things you assert about age. In this day and age that just will not do at all, Sir
We have law which makes it extremely adviseable that employers concentrate on finding other ways to choose who they take on and promote
I am afraid you'll just have to get used to that, no matter how it might grate. Or perhaps you might harbour views such that you believe that there should not only be a free vote in the next Parliament to repeal the Foxhunting Act, but also one to repeal the Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006?
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slip and turn, shove your facts based on guesswork up your arse and listen to people around here who are a lot more experienced in the industry than yourself. Political correctnes is as entertaining as your ridiculous postings in this thread!
Speaking as an outsider (not likely to have anything to do with NATS due to geographical location) I see no signs of "ageism" on this thread.
I do perceive a bit of political correct-ness.
Political correct-ness, IMO, has no place in the ATC workplace (except for the usual socially accepted behaviours*) where reality is the normal way of life. We are, of necessity, usually very pragmatic at work.
The reality is that as one ages, ones capacity to learn at a particular rate becomes diminished.
The required rate of learning for someone attempting to learn a tower job may exceed available capacity. And that's more likely to be the case the older one is.
(* Hopefully it is not necessary to provide examples of what may infringe these, which of course can vary widely, depending on who you're with, on a forum for adults.)
I do perceive a bit of political correct-ness.
Political correct-ness, IMO, has no place in the ATC workplace (except for the usual socially accepted behaviours*) where reality is the normal way of life. We are, of necessity, usually very pragmatic at work.
The reality is that as one ages, ones capacity to learn at a particular rate becomes diminished.
The required rate of learning for someone attempting to learn a tower job may exceed available capacity. And that's more likely to be the case the older one is.
(* Hopefully it is not necessary to provide examples of what may infringe these, which of course can vary widely, depending on who you're with, on a forum for adults.)
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I gave what I considered to be reasonable comment based upon my experience and I am almost being accused of some sort of age-discrimination.
PC is total garbage IMHO and employers, ATC or others, should have every right to choose candidates who will stand a good chance of making the grade. Fact is that in ATC younger people stand a better chance. That's not discrimination, that is a fact of life.
PC is total garbage IMHO and employers, ATC or others, should have every right to choose candidates who will stand a good chance of making the grade. Fact is that in ATC younger people stand a better chance. That's not discrimination, that is a fact of life.
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slip and turn, I assume, posts here when taking a break from his job at Sudbury Council.
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I heard Guernsey may be recruiting in the near future for tower only initially, and also re the age issue, I think Alderney took on a 50 + yr old as ab initio this year although I understand he had an aviation background (flying)I would speak to the Manager ATC for details if I were in your situation and interested
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Same old same old.
Now then, was that political correctness or just pure plain proper correctness? Are those of you still making recruitment decisions in this industry outside of some thankfully enlightened islands of reason up for that challenge or do you consider yourselves above it?
We do not seek to be critical...by suggesting that many (ATCOs) appear to have firm views on the potential of older candidates. In the context of this industry, and having regard to the historical background, it is perfectly understandable. The commonly held views proceed from a legitimate wish to ensure safety. However it is common that discrimination...is unconscious and may arise from assumptions which are insufficiently considered. Changing these perceptions will be a challenge...
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Slip and Turn, you are missing the whole point but then I think you know that already, don`t you?
If you want to hear the PC line just phone any HR office and they`ll make your heart warm with their soothing words of all inclusive equality. However, you are on proffessional forum talking to the people working in the ATC environment at every level of the traffic spectrum so just expect the truth and little tolerance of blatant stupidity.
Let me put it very simply for you, as dirsct as NikNak`s post was you will be very hard pressed to find anyone in ATC to disagree with the harsh realities of life if you have not got at least two of the three ratings.
Maybe instead of amusing yourself with your great knowledge of all things good and true you could give Kevpem your own opinion on his situation based on your own ATC experience?
Kevpem, sorry its not good newsbut NikNak is right, unless you are prepared to gamble a significant amount of money self funding your options are extremely limited. Good luck!!
If you want to hear the PC line just phone any HR office and they`ll make your heart warm with their soothing words of all inclusive equality. However, you are on proffessional forum talking to the people working in the ATC environment at every level of the traffic spectrum so just expect the truth and little tolerance of blatant stupidity.
Let me put it very simply for you, as dirsct as NikNak`s post was you will be very hard pressed to find anyone in ATC to disagree with the harsh realities of life if you have not got at least two of the three ratings.
Maybe instead of amusing yourself with your great knowledge of all things good and true you could give Kevpem your own opinion on his situation based on your own ATC experience?
Kevpem, sorry its not good newsbut NikNak is right, unless you are prepared to gamble a significant amount of money self funding your options are extremely limited. Good luck!!