ATC Question
ATC Question
Does anybody have a contact for feedback regarding ATC procedures in the London area (especially LGW). The issue is regarding receiving a descent to an altitude with QNH, and then a few seconds later getting a frequency change. I can see that ATC is trying to be helpful, but the second transmission tends to interrupt the all important altimeter setting & crosscheck. One day I fear it may cause a serious problem. Thanks in advance.
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Right Way Up,
Not sure what happens at LGW but it happens here down under as well. Many locations have a standard assignable level with no coordination. You hold off assigning it to get the conflicting traffic out of the way but then end up tight on the frequency transfer to the next position. End result:
"Descend to A090, QNH 1013 Contact Approach 124.4"
Not the best practice but sometimes needs must.
Not sure what happens at LGW but it happens here down under as well. Many locations have a standard assignable level with no coordination. You hold off assigning it to get the conflicting traffic out of the way but then end up tight on the frequency transfer to the next position. End result:
"Descend to A090, QNH 1013 Contact Approach 124.4"
Not the best practice but sometimes needs must.
D N C,
I think this is probably a better way, although not perfect. At least we can set and crosscheck the QNH without being interrupted, and then setup the new frequency at our leisure.
Descend to A090, QNH 1013 Contact Approach 124.4
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Hi Folks
I'm an area controller in the London TMA wokring around Gatwick (but not on approach). Regarding the 2nd point in the UK we aren't allowed to give a level change with a frequency change.
This is because we often encounter incorrect readbacks from pilots and sometimes the frequency change is effected so quickly that we don't have the opportunity to correct the error. If the incorrect part is just a heading for general presentation to the next sector then it's just a pain. But if the error is an unsafe climb or descent then the consequences are less than ideal.
So no level change with frequency change in London control...
But the original point is valid and where practicable, it is better for the controller to consider the workload of the pilot and subject to my workload, I will alternate calls to aircraft rather than issue two or more successive calls to the same pilot for this very reason. I emphasise the subject to workload part as sometimes it simply isn't an option. There is also the point that a controller's job is to perform the function of their sector, and then transfer to somebody else! So once the final executive instruction is given, the only thing left is to pass you on so that you can concentrate on the many behind still being processed!
It will never be possible to eliminate the level change followed by frequency change but I can understand your comments. There are fora between the airlines and the ATC provider for Best Practice, and maybe you coud feed this back through your Ops department for discussion there?
As an aside, I would heartily recommend, if you haven't done so already, trying to get down to Swanwick for a visit to the boys and girls to whom you talk daily. It's a very unusual world in which we work and both parties tend to learn a great deal from such exchanges.
Hope to see you soon!
Cartman
I'm an area controller in the London TMA wokring around Gatwick (but not on approach). Regarding the 2nd point in the UK we aren't allowed to give a level change with a frequency change.
This is because we often encounter incorrect readbacks from pilots and sometimes the frequency change is effected so quickly that we don't have the opportunity to correct the error. If the incorrect part is just a heading for general presentation to the next sector then it's just a pain. But if the error is an unsafe climb or descent then the consequences are less than ideal.
So no level change with frequency change in London control...
But the original point is valid and where practicable, it is better for the controller to consider the workload of the pilot and subject to my workload, I will alternate calls to aircraft rather than issue two or more successive calls to the same pilot for this very reason. I emphasise the subject to workload part as sometimes it simply isn't an option. There is also the point that a controller's job is to perform the function of their sector, and then transfer to somebody else! So once the final executive instruction is given, the only thing left is to pass you on so that you can concentrate on the many behind still being processed!
It will never be possible to eliminate the level change followed by frequency change but I can understand your comments. There are fora between the airlines and the ATC provider for Best Practice, and maybe you coud feed this back through your Ops department for discussion there?
As an aside, I would heartily recommend, if you haven't done so already, trying to get down to Swanwick for a visit to the boys and girls to whom you talk daily. It's a very unusual world in which we work and both parties tend to learn a great deal from such exchanges.
Hope to see you soon!
Cartman
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<<So no level change with frequency change in London control...>>
Exceptionally sensible practice...
<<As an aside, I would heartily recommend, if you haven't done so already, trying to get down to Swanwick for a visit to the boys and girls to whom you talk daily. It's a very unusual world in which we work and both parties tend to learn a great deal from such exchanges.>>
Exceptionally good advice. I've never understood pilots complaining about such matters, especially when they have the luxury of two people up there! Many controllers work alone on a frequency and whilst they're issuing instructions they may be taking a phone call in the other ear, writing on a Flight Progress Strip and listening to the controller alongside.
Exceptionally sensible practice...
<<As an aside, I would heartily recommend, if you haven't done so already, trying to get down to Swanwick for a visit to the boys and girls to whom you talk daily. It's a very unusual world in which we work and both parties tend to learn a great deal from such exchanges.>>
Exceptionally good advice. I've never understood pilots complaining about such matters, especially when they have the luxury of two people up there! Many controllers work alone on a frequency and whilst they're issuing instructions they may be taking a phone call in the other ear, writing on a Flight Progress Strip and listening to the controller alongside.
HD,
I can assure you it is not a complaint but legitimate feedback that could avoid someone having a nasty one day. When we are given the first descent and QNH it is very important that the crews set the altimeters correctly. With the second transmission that crosscheck is sometimes being interrupted. With the majority of accidents being CFIT this is not a small deal.
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of visiting Swanwick. I have already been along to a few LGW tower training days & have the utmost respect for UK ATC.
I can assure you it is not a complaint but legitimate feedback that could avoid someone having a nasty one day. When we are given the first descent and QNH it is very important that the crews set the altimeters correctly. With the second transmission that crosscheck is sometimes being interrupted. With the majority of accidents being CFIT this is not a small deal.
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of visiting Swanwick. I have already been along to a few LGW tower training days & have the utmost respect for UK ATC.
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Would waiting a minute before giving the frequency change solve this?
Glamdring,
I reckon 30 seconds would be enough.
I reckon 30 seconds would be enough.
This is why Pilots and Controllers need to talk more 
In fact you will probably find that 10 secs is more than enough. As an exercise in time management, sit down in a room with no distractions, no radio or anything. Set a timer for 30 seconds. Start the timer, sit back and do nothing.
Now think how much you could achieve in that 30 secs.
(An old trick taught at Mil flying Sqns near the beggining of Nav training)
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By the way, isn't it necessary for pilots to request start-up clearance after de-icing if they didn't get it before? Is there any time limitation and where can I find any info about that?
