Callsign first or last

[trot]

good morning,

after an unsuccessful search i am going to post my question.

upon instructions from ATC, do i respond with my callsign at the beginning or at the end of my readback?
many theories out there, but any literature/docs to back it up......

thanks folks

[mocoman]

CAP 413, most noteably Chapter 10 (Phraseology Examples), has the answer:

Callsign at the end of your readbacks.


CAP 413

[Terminalor]

I agree with mocoman.

Still german airlines like Lufthansa and Air Berlin put callsign first. Is there any german guys who could tell us why they have ended up to this opposite way.

Just intrested about backgrounds....

[Defruiter]

I asked that same question before to a Lufthansa pilot. He told me that's the way they are taught to do it in Germany.

[Finals19]

Its an easy mistake to make really.

CAP 413 confirms that call sign should be at the end of the read-back.

I made the mistake while talking to an RAF ATSU this weekend....but then again so did the RAF helicopter pilot that passed 1000ft below me...

To err is human

[hvogt]

trot,

first of all, there is no ICAO standard that would answer your question, hence the confusion. The only ICAO provisions in Annex 10, Volume 2 that clearly require the call sign to be at the end of a transmission have PANS status only:

5.2.1.9.2.2 PANS.— An aircraft station should acknowledge receipt of important air traffic control messages or parts thereof by reading them back and terminating the readback by its radio call sign.

5.2.1.9.2.3.1 PANS.— An aeronautical station should acknowledge position reports and other flight progress reports by reading back the report and terminating the readback by its call sign, except that the readback procedure may be suspended temporarily whenever it will alleviate congestion on the communication channel.

Since there is no ICAO standard, regulations in the member states are different.

mocoman has already mentioned CAP 413 for the UK. However, there seems to be no general rule saying "put the call sign first" or "put the call sign last". According to CAP 413, Chapter 2, Section 1, Subsection 1.9 the position of the call sign varies with cases.

In Germany the call sign shall be transmitted at the beginning of a message. A direct answer to a message may be terminated by the call sign. (see AIP GEN 3.4-9). From my own experience I can say that most examiners for the RTF licence exams and most RTF instructors are very particular about putting the call signs first. I believe that is why German airlines have such a reputation with regard to this question.

[phantomlurker]

german callsign positioning

From what I understand,
The PNF leans over to adjust the relevant dial/push button whilst reading back the callsign, whilst the PIC is checking what has actually been input, before the PNF reads the rest of the readback.

It just allows an extra moment to check for readback/understanding errors.

I think! There may be other reasons....

PL

[Terminalor]

Thanks hvogt for the answer

I hadn't actually thought the "status" of PANS as a recommendation. I think most countries have transferred those as national "rules" without any doubt.

If I understood correctly the differences should be published in local AIP. So in that case also foreign pilots should communicate in that way in german airspace and vice versa.

T

[hvogt]

Terminalor,

that is exactly the way I see it.

Differences from Standards shall be reported to the ICAO pursuant to article 38 of the Convention. They must then be published in the Supplements to the Annexes (last sentence of Article 38) and in the AIPs (4.1.2 c) of Annex 15).

Differences from Recommended Practices and Procedures (i. e. PANS) do not require a notification to the Organization, however, they must also be published in the AIPs (4.1.2 c) of Annex 15).

So in that case also foreign pilots should communicate in that way in german airspace and vice versa.

Yes, in a perfect world.

[radar information]

I think I speak for most of the guys I know that as long as the pilot gives a correct readback then I don't really care whether the call sign is at the beginning or the end, although the majority of pilots do put it at the end of their readbacks.