Infringements
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Infringements
On looking through the latest list of "occurrences...concerning aircraft of 5700kg and below from the CAA, covering only the 5 weeks from 14/9 to 21/10, 2009, in the UK - I counted a total of 70 infringements, 61 fixed wing, 9 rotary. Would anyone care to comment?
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Would anyone care to comment
As part of my NATS ATC course I was given a 2 week course at a flying club to gain some hands on flying experience (sadly NATS have stopped this nowadays). As I was an ex-mil aviator, it was really a bit moot for me, but i did use the time constructively. I taught my allocated FI how to navigate as he did not know anything other than the basics - which was enough for him to teach.
Just because there are lots of changes in base levels, as alluded to by Not Long Now, proper training, planning and execution would drastically cut infringements.
maybe we should make all CAS around CTAs from surface up... then people canot whinge about the difficulty of different levles!!
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What might also help would be appropriate punishments. Rarely does a zone infringer suffer the full force of the law..
Centuries ago at a very large UK airport there was a SATCO who was particularly concerned about such delinquents. If they landed somewhere nearby they would be told to report the large airport where they would have to sit with the radar controllers for an hour or two. The effect was quite dramatic.
Centuries ago at a very large UK airport there was a SATCO who was particularly concerned about such delinquents. If they landed somewhere nearby they would be told to report the large airport where they would have to sit with the radar controllers for an hour or two. The effect was quite dramatic.
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What might also help would be appropriate punishments. Rarely does a zone infringer suffer the full force of the law..
Otherwise, if you want to encourage folk to switch off their transponder and thus negate all the ground and airborne safety aids then, of course, go around with a big stick
On looking through the latest list of "occurrences...concerning aircraft of 5700kg and below from the CAA, covering only the 5 weeks from 14/9 to 21/10, 2009, in the UK - I counted a total of 70 infringements, 61 fixed wing, 9 rotary. Would anyone care to comment?
Make the PPL more difficult and ban GPS for people with less than 1000Hrs.
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I guess they have just adjusted CAIT the Controlled Airspace Incursion Tool with a screwdriver and there are consequently more purple blips around. Funny, that. I would have thought the Incursion 'Tool' is the pilot of the offending aircraft......
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From my perspective as a flying instructor I think that the following would help
1 - Redesign airspace where there are multiple and regular infringements (or at least wake up to the fact that there may be an issue with the design of the airspace). If it was an accident blackspot on a road we would take action to redesign not just keep moaning about it.
2 - Demand experience of busy airspace during navigation phase of PPL (for example transits of busy class d zones)
3 - Stop excluding private flyers from controlled airspace as this just means that they have less experience of flying in busy airspace. If we want them to get up to speed and act professionaly then we should treat them as qualified pilots who understand and know how to fly in the system (until proven otherwise).
4 - Adopt an easier IR for private pilots to get their knowledge and skill levels higher (i.e. get rid of the nonsense and provide them with practical knowledge and skills that they can then apply to fly safely).
It has been done and we all know where
Oh and here's one that might be more controversial....Send controllers to other countries for short secondments to see how others manage traffic (not related to infringements but might make controllers see that there is capacity for ppl flyers within those hallowed and fiercely protected zones)
1 - Redesign airspace where there are multiple and regular infringements (or at least wake up to the fact that there may be an issue with the design of the airspace). If it was an accident blackspot on a road we would take action to redesign not just keep moaning about it.
2 - Demand experience of busy airspace during navigation phase of PPL (for example transits of busy class d zones)
3 - Stop excluding private flyers from controlled airspace as this just means that they have less experience of flying in busy airspace. If we want them to get up to speed and act professionaly then we should treat them as qualified pilots who understand and know how to fly in the system (until proven otherwise).
4 - Adopt an easier IR for private pilots to get their knowledge and skill levels higher (i.e. get rid of the nonsense and provide them with practical knowledge and skills that they can then apply to fly safely).
It has been done and we all know where
Oh and here's one that might be more controversial....Send controllers to other countries for short secondments to see how others manage traffic (not related to infringements but might make controllers see that there is capacity for ppl flyers within those hallowed and fiercely protected zones)
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And there was a time when you could take your PA28 into Heathrow or Gatwick and be welcome and it was reasonably cheap (well done BAA).
As far as GPS's go, I think they have probably saved as many if not more infringements than they have caused, but they need to be used in conjunction with not instead off other navigation means.
Interestingly I have had the situation when checking accuracy when the three GPS's on board, one of which was fitted and passed for IR flight, all gave the aircraft position 1 mile outside a certain zone and the radar had us half a mile inside. Makes you think as to wether CAIT is that accurate but there again it belongs to the enforcers so what they say is always correct
Better training for PPL nav and better designed airspace would go a long way to help.
H365
As far as GPS's go, I think they have probably saved as many if not more infringements than they have caused, but they need to be used in conjunction with not instead off other navigation means.
Interestingly I have had the situation when checking accuracy when the three GPS's on board, one of which was fitted and passed for IR flight, all gave the aircraft position 1 mile outside a certain zone and the radar had us half a mile inside. Makes you think as to wether CAIT is that accurate but there again it belongs to the enforcers so what they say is always correct
Better training for PPL nav and better designed airspace would go a long way to help.
H365
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I have had a similar experience to HDG365. I was flying in Glass G airspace about 1.5 miles outside CAS "owned" by a NATS unit. I was not using a GPS, but a half-mil aeronautical map and I knew exactly where I was as I was flying over my parents house. I was monitoring the approach freq and received a "Blast" for infringing the TMA. My passenger was a very senior BA captain who also knew the area well and he confimed that we were well outside the TMA. The point to my post is that in my opinion since the backslapping and bonuses all round opening of Farnborough radar a few years ago even though at the time it was not up to speed other NATS units have tried to show that they are equally as worthwhile. This has been compounded by the lack of empathy, lack of appreciation of the problems of the GA pilot, and general lack of experience of some of the younger atcos of all things aeronautical. Please remember that NATS do not own the airspace, but manages it on behalf of the public. Pilots (Amateur or professionally rated) are quite entitled to fly on the boundaries of CAS in Class G airspace without reference to anyone whether atcos agree or not and that also includes MATZs. You may consider it unwise however you are not flying the aeroplane. On a positive note it is very noticable when an empathic and switched-on atco is on duty, I was recently operating in the Manchester Low Level Route and monitoring Manchester Approach and the atco there was giving all kinds of useful information to traffic in the LLR in addition to his primary task. He was a great credit to NATS and the Manchester ATC unit, I just wish some of his colleagues was equally as professional.
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 26th Nov 2009 at 14:06.
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belowradar....
You are more than welcome to visit TC and see first hand the volume of VFR/SVFR transits issued by myself and my colleagues, through all hallowed London airport zones, every day. The vast majority of us will do all we can to accommodate requests.
I'll happily take you up on your 'short secondment' to another country, but I won't be visiting any air traffic units, thanks
You are more than welcome to visit TC and see first hand the volume of VFR/SVFR transits issued by myself and my colleagues, through all hallowed London airport zones, every day. The vast majority of us will do all we can to accommodate requests.
I'll happily take you up on your 'short secondment' to another country, but I won't be visiting any air traffic units, thanks
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Several points.
I spent over 3 years abroad,and PPL are given far more freedom to fly within CAS at my NATS unit,than my previous location.(Hong Kong).
I agree that PPL should be encouraged to use CAS for experience.However there are a quite a few who cannot adhere to entry/exit lanes,cannot use the R/T properly,and there is a fine line between letting it go,or giving them a reminder.This sounds like a bollocking but I have seen serious Airproxs with lost wandering PPLs.I have also had PPLs and Instructors start arguing over the R/T,because they aren't getting their way.
How do you know the GPS map is accurate.The TOM TOM I've got has a great trick of vectoring you into someones driveway.
I have no problem with PPL wanting to fly over someones house on the boundary of CAS,as long as they say they might clip the edge.
We are now required to report all CAS infingements,no matter how small.Before it might be a quick call to the Watch Manager,but now it's paper work.
Finally nothing is being said about the military infingements.In nearly 30 years I have had 5 military ones to every PPL,yet absolutely nothing is ever done about them.There is a lot more probability of a serious incident with the military,certainly in this area.
ATCO 30 years.PPL night rated.
I spent over 3 years abroad,and PPL are given far more freedom to fly within CAS at my NATS unit,than my previous location.(Hong Kong).
I agree that PPL should be encouraged to use CAS for experience.However there are a quite a few who cannot adhere to entry/exit lanes,cannot use the R/T properly,and there is a fine line between letting it go,or giving them a reminder.This sounds like a bollocking but I have seen serious Airproxs with lost wandering PPLs.I have also had PPLs and Instructors start arguing over the R/T,because they aren't getting their way.
How do you know the GPS map is accurate.The TOM TOM I've got has a great trick of vectoring you into someones driveway.
I have no problem with PPL wanting to fly over someones house on the boundary of CAS,as long as they say they might clip the edge.
We are now required to report all CAS infingements,no matter how small.Before it might be a quick call to the Watch Manager,but now it's paper work.
Finally nothing is being said about the military infingements.In nearly 30 years I have had 5 military ones to every PPL,yet absolutely nothing is ever done about them.There is a lot more probability of a serious incident with the military,certainly in this area.
ATCO 30 years.PPL night rated.
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We have similar problems with "SatNav", but it is not the same as basic GPS information because Tom Tom, or whatever system you use, is often trying to link the GPS information to an address which may be wrong in its database. No SatNav I have seen will recognise my address; you have to input a different postal address! If you input my address you end up miles away, as the drivers of many courier services have found out.
Rather than the SatNav built into our car, my wife and I tend to use our GPS receiver fed into a PDA with OS Landranger maps displayed. This usually tells us where we are to within a few yards, although GPS signals on the ground can be effected by dense vegetation, high buildings, etc.
Airborne GPS systems which display the aircraft position on, for example, CAA aeronautical charts, should be accurate enough to permit the pilot to avoid regulated airspace which he is not authorised to enter.
To suggest that life should be made easier for miscreants who do infringe controlled airspace through plain ignorance or negligence is fairly typical of the attitude of so many "do-gooders" nowadays, which is why our country is in such a mess.
The answer is proper education and proper training, a lot of which seems to be missing with some PPL holders. If they then cock it up and cause major problems for commercial aircraft operating correctly in CAS then it's time to get out the head bludgeon!
Rather than the SatNav built into our car, my wife and I tend to use our GPS receiver fed into a PDA with OS Landranger maps displayed. This usually tells us where we are to within a few yards, although GPS signals on the ground can be effected by dense vegetation, high buildings, etc.
Airborne GPS systems which display the aircraft position on, for example, CAA aeronautical charts, should be accurate enough to permit the pilot to avoid regulated airspace which he is not authorised to enter.
To suggest that life should be made easier for miscreants who do infringe controlled airspace through plain ignorance or negligence is fairly typical of the attitude of so many "do-gooders" nowadays, which is why our country is in such a mess.
The answer is proper education and proper training, a lot of which seems to be missing with some PPL holders. If they then cock it up and cause major problems for commercial aircraft operating correctly in CAS then it's time to get out the head bludgeon!