ATC Operations

[biaeghh]

Speaking from a viewpoint of ignorance can someone please tell why it seems common practice to line an aircraft up (normally a commercial operation) without airways clearance, sometimes this leads to delays and a waste of fuel for the aircraft orbitting. This seems to happen a lot at my local airstrip.

B

[Barnaby the Bear]

You don't give alot away, except I am guessing you are talking about Bournemouth. If so i am only guessing and a BOH ATCO will probably correct me.
Do you have to back track? Its possible that Bournemouth require a release from Southampton. Although BOH may have your clearance, it maybe that they expect it to be amended (maybe due local traffic). Therefore in order to have you ready, and to expedite the release from Southampton they line you up and only pass you the amended clearance in the first instance to avoid confusion and to save time.

I remember hearing at Coventry that Airways traffic had to be lined up ready to go before requesting release from Birmingham (again I could be wrong).

As I said, I don't know Bournemouth's operation (if it is Bournemouth) so I wait to be corrected.

[biaeghh]

With 26 deps there is no back track required however there is on 08. There was a RYR today told to line before clearance was given and tehn told by ATC five minutes later to taxi back to the holding point because London had not issued the clearance.
This whilst there were two aircraft orbitting and wasting fuel. I appreciate that commercial traffic takes priority but with alittle bit of planning I think we could be a bit more efficient. The other gripe is when a 737 is on a 200 mile (ok maybe 10mile) final for either rwy the circuit is cleared.

Hope that answers some of your points

[rolaaand]

Give Bournemouth ATC a ring,explain who you are and ask for a visit. You'll then get all your questions answered by the people who know best

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm quite certain that Bournemouth ATC would be very grateful for your input to enable them to do their jobs properly..........

[5milesbaby]

I know there used to be quite a strict time limit for a/c departing north/eastwards with Terminal Control (TC) at Swanwick, I'm not sure if this is still the case, any of you TC south bankers in the know?
Also, I imagine the co-ordination sequence will go via Solent Approach so there could be a stipulation that the aircraft is on runway and ready to depart (not by TC but from Solent).
Don't forget that a SLOT may have been issued too just to narrow those goalposts slightly more.....

[Northerner]

I May be wrong (I frequently am )...
99% of the time TC give a release to Solent (incBournemouth traffic) with no issues. However, on occasion we have to say "no", or "not yet", or "I'll call you back".
Because airfields get so used to us 'always' giving release, they line an aircraft up in anticipation of it being able to go immediately, then are slightly embarrassed on the few occasions it doesn't happen. Wouldn't be the first time, and doubt it'll be the last.

Equally, it is possible that Solent won't give release unless aircraft is ready to go.

I can't remember if we have an official Clearance Expiry Time on Solent (inc HH traffic) but certainly the guys and gals at Solent Radar (who incidentally do a great job IMHO) know that if we give a release we expect to see the aircraft fairly pronto. In addition, if the departure is Northbound at rush hour in the morning it may be subject to a Miles in trail restriction and be having to be fitted in with Southampton Northbounds.

Could be any number of reasons, also aluded to on here.

Best bet is def to give the tower a call and go visit and ask; ATCO's are not all pilot eating monsters and you will get the answers you are looking for, and maybe find out how you can help with the smooth running of things too...

Cheers,
Northerner


"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[5milesbaby]

For any departures going south its similar to what Northerner says - Solent call - we "normally" release but then its a guessing game when they actually pop up on radar, so no clearance expiry unless we pass one (heard it done twice that I can remember from the last 8 years!) and any outbound/inbound conflicts is generally done by Solent Approach usually with a call to us for a higher or lower level for one.

[Barnaby the Bear]

The other gripe is when a 737 is on a 200 mile (ok maybe 10mile) final for either rwy the circuit is cleared.

Again you don't say what you are flying. But if a B737 was on an 8 or even 10 mile final I would probably not put a C152 late downwind in front (each circumstance is different taking all sorts or variables into account).
A B737 would burn far more fuel going around than your C152/P28A orbitting for spacing. You wouldn't be popular by management or the operator either delaying a commercial flight for a trainer (unless it was for safety reasons of course).

As suggested, try to organise a visit to the tower. A few donuts/biscuits always help.

[anotherthing]

there was a time about 2 or 3 years ago when there was a rule introduced stating that once TC had issued a release the a/c had to be airborne within (I think) 10 mins. Wasn't really adhered to at the time. Saying that it doesn't seem t be an issue nowadays anyways... and as mentioned above, the Solent guys do a fantastic job and are pretty busy... making a mockery of certain 'band 5' approach units at TC...

[biaeghh]

Many thanks for all your responses, will give the facility a call and try and arrange a visit.