Flight Information Service Query
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Flight Information Service Query
I'm studying for a PPL and was wondering about the FIS: I read that it is availiable in uncontrolled airspace but there is no mention of it in controlled airspace. Is the RIS the same as the FIS, only adjusted for radar?
Someone told me that the FIS gives information on weather, airport conditions etc but the RIS is only a traffic information service.
If a RIS doesn't offer same services as a FIS then how do you get reports on weather etc (other than ATIS).
Thanks, BA 77.
Someone told me that the FIS gives information on weather, airport conditions etc but the RIS is only a traffic information service.
If a RIS doesn't offer same services as a FIS then how do you get reports on weather etc (other than ATIS).
Thanks, BA 77.
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hi BA 77,
good on you for asking. You are slightly confused on the subject and you've done the right thing.
The services you mention, RIS, FIS and RAS don't exist anymore. They've been replaced altogether by new ones this year in March.
This website should have answer to most of your questions. If you still have any doubts feel free to PM or use this forum again
Air Space Safety: About
good on you for asking. You are slightly confused on the subject and you've done the right thing.
The services you mention, RIS, FIS and RAS don't exist anymore. They've been replaced altogether by new ones this year in March.
This website should have answer to most of your questions. If you still have any doubts feel free to PM or use this forum again
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Your books must be out of date as in the UK FIS,RIS and RAS were replaced by Basic,Traffic and Deconfliction service in March. They are the services now available outside controlled air space. Inside controlled air space it is a control service (procedural or radar). As for weather info etc, that is available under all services.
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Take a look here to get up to speed on the subject 
Safety Sense Leaflet 08: Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace | Publications | CAA
Safety Sense Leaflet 08: Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace | Publications | CAA
BA77
The fact of the matter is that, in subdividing the FIS outside CAS into the four services described above, the CAA have confused the issue and themselves. FIS is always provided within CAS in addition to the ATC service, but what constitutes that FIS (which equates to a Basic Service, but the latter is a term that relates to uncontrolled airspace) is now considered to be part and parcel of the ATC service.
2 s
The fact of the matter is that, in subdividing the FIS outside CAS into the four services described above, the CAA have confused the issue and themselves. FIS is always provided within CAS in addition to the ATC service, but what constitutes that FIS (which equates to a Basic Service, but the latter is a term that relates to uncontrolled airspace) is now considered to be part and parcel of the ATC service.
2 s
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Thanks everyone. My books do talk about deconfliction, procedural and traffic services but didn't mention the fact that the FIS, RIS, RAS etc no longer exist.
Sorry for all the questions, but are the new services availiable in both controlled and uncontrolled or are there seperate services for seperate airspace classes. Also, I read about a FIS at an aerodrome which doesn't have a full ATSU, does that still exist or has it been changed as well?
Thanks again, BA 77.
Sorry for all the questions, but are the new services availiable in both controlled and uncontrolled or are there seperate services for seperate airspace classes. Also, I read about a FIS at an aerodrome which doesn't have a full ATSU, does that still exist or has it been changed as well?
Thanks again, BA 77.
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BA77
The 3 services (a suite, if you will), are available only Outside of Controlled Airspace. An aerodrome which has no full ATSU (one with FISOs as opposed to Controllers) will be able to only provide a basic service. The crucial difference is while a Basic Service needs no ATC Surveillance System - radar - a Basic Service provided by a Controller with radar should provide you with dangerous proximity warnings of other traffic (my words not CAP 774).
Inside CAS: dragons lie here and it depends whether you're VFR or IFR and the class of airspace.
Clearer?
Rgds
Grabbers
The 3 services (a suite, if you will), are available only Outside of Controlled Airspace. An aerodrome which has no full ATSU (one with FISOs as opposed to Controllers) will be able to only provide a basic service. The crucial difference is while a Basic Service needs no ATC Surveillance System - radar - a Basic Service provided by a Controller with radar should provide you with dangerous proximity warnings of other traffic (my words not CAP 774).
Inside CAS: dragons lie here and it depends whether you're VFR or IFR and the class of airspace.
Clearer?
Rgds
Grabbers
Grabbers
Very misleading.
There are the four services, all termed "Flight Information Services".
There is no such animal as a "full ATSU" - you mean an aerodrome that provides FIS as opposed to ATC; each is an ATSU.
Not so. There is no "should" involved at all. CAP774 specifies...
A controller with access to surveillance derived information shall avoid the routine provision of traffic information on specific aircraft, and a pilot who considers that he requires such a regular flow of specific traffic information shall request a Traffic Service. However, if a controller/FISO considers that a definite risk of collision exists, a warning may be issued to the pilot.
2 s
Very misleading.
The 3 services (a suite, if you will), are available only Outside of Controlled Airspace.
An aerodrome which has no full ATSU (one with FISOs as opposed to Controllers)
a Basic Service provided by a Controller with radar should provide you with dangerous proximity warnings of other traffic (my words not CAP 774).
Not so. There is no "should" involved at all. CAP774 specifies...
A controller with access to surveillance derived information shall avoid the routine provision of traffic information on specific aircraft, and a pilot who considers that he requires such a regular flow of specific traffic information shall request a Traffic Service. However, if a controller/FISO considers that a definite risk of collision exists, a warning may be issued to the pilot.
2 s
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I wish everyone would stop gibbering on and mis-quoting!!
BA77 if you read the enclosed document on the following site I posted earlier all will become clear!!
Safety Sense Leaflet 08: Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace | Publications | CAA
BA77 if you read the enclosed document on the following site I posted earlier all will become clear!!
Safety Sense Leaflet 08: Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace | Publications | CAA
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Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers provide Flight Information Service within the Aerodrome Traffic Zone. Not Basic Service, nor Traffic Service.
Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers cannot provide Basic Service within the Aerodrome Traffic Zone because Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers are required by CAP774 to provide Specific and Updated Traffic Information (for the purposes of Rule 45). CAP774 says so:
In order to comply with the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007 (as amended) with regard to flight within an ATZ, specific and, where appropriate, updated traffic information will be provided to aircraft operating in an ATZ.
Basic Service specifically excludes Traffic Information. CAP774 says so:
Pilots should not expect any form of traffic information
Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers cannot provide Traffic Service because Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers are not controllers with access to an ATS surveillance system. CAP774 says so:
A Traffic Service shall only be provided by a controller with access to an ATS surveillance system.
It follows, therefore, that Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers provide Flight Information Service within the Aerodrome Traffic Zone.
QED
Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers cannot provide Basic Service within the Aerodrome Traffic Zone because Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers are required by CAP774 to provide Specific and Updated Traffic Information (for the purposes of Rule 45). CAP774 says so:
In order to comply with the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007 (as amended) with regard to flight within an ATZ, specific and, where appropriate, updated traffic information will be provided to aircraft operating in an ATZ.
Basic Service specifically excludes Traffic Information. CAP774 says so:
Pilots should not expect any form of traffic information
Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers cannot provide Traffic Service because Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers are not controllers with access to an ATS surveillance system. CAP774 says so:
A Traffic Service shall only be provided by a controller with access to an ATS surveillance system.
It follows, therefore, that Aerodrome Flight Information Service Officers provide Flight Information Service within the Aerodrome Traffic Zone.
QED
Last edited by Talkdownman; 28th Oct 2009 at 06:49.
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Thanks for all the answers (and especially the Safety Sense leafet). One (hopefully) last question: if the Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction and Procedural Services are only availiable in uncontrolled airspace, then what is there in controlled airspace?
Sorry for all the questions, I just don't want to get this wrong in the exam. Thanks, BA 77.
Sorry for all the questions, I just don't want to get this wrong in the exam. Thanks, BA 77.
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Its a Radar Control Service inside Classes A to E airspace.
In Class F (Radar Advisory Routes) its a Deconfliction Service.
[Edited due to answering too early in the morning without reading the Part 1!!]
In Class F (Radar Advisory Routes) its a Deconfliction Service.
[Edited due to answering too early in the morning without reading the Part 1!!]
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Its a Radar Control Service inside Classes A to E airspace.
Simple summary -
For VFR flight
In Class A to D you receive an ATC service (level of separation provided depends on class of airspace) and also a Flight Information Service.
In Class E you can if you choose receive a Flight Information Service.
In Class G you can if you choose receive a Flight Information Service which is sub-divided into 4 defined levels -
Deconfliction Service
Traffic Service
Basic Service
Procedural Service
In simple terms, in controlled airspace there is 1 level of FIS available and that is it. In Class G, the pilot has the option to choose what level of service they would like to receive under the heading of Flight Information Service.
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BA77......after reading this thread and the bollocks at times talked you must really be confused....for the third time try downloading the CAA safety sense notice and all SHOULD become clear
Safety Sense Leaflet 08: Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace | Publications | CAA
Lets all be clear the word "Flight Information Service" now is the banner name given for the 4 types of service given outside controlled airspace. FIS in itself is no longer a type of service in its own right!!
Even if you fly in class "E" airspace VFR and ask for a service ( not necessary though VFR ) from the ATSU they will probablly only give you a Basic Service.
Safety Sense Leaflet 08: Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace | Publications | CAA
Lets all be clear the word "Flight Information Service" now is the banner name given for the 4 types of service given outside controlled airspace. FIS in itself is no longer a type of service in its own right!!
Even if you fly in class "E" airspace VFR and ask for a service ( not necessary though VFR ) from the ATSU they will probablly only give you a Basic Service.
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Dare I say it, it was much easier under FIS/RIS/RAS, with all three of those services providing an Alerting Service as part and parcel of 'the deal'.
The new services have just muddied the water. I bet in a few years time we will get to the stage whereby LARS or other controllers will be giving too much traffic info to aircraft under a BS - one of the reasons why the change was brought in as FIS had degenerated into a quasi RIS.
Re-education would have been better instead of changing the old services. Now although you sohuldn't give traffic info under a BS, controllers have a moral obligation to do so if they believe that a flight is in danger.
It then comes down to what constitutes 'being in danger' and how individual controllers assess this. As the boundaries get fuzzy, giving traffic info will become more and more regular until in 5 or 10 years time (at the latest) controllers will once again be 'over controllng', mainly because by doing so they think they will be giving a better service.
The new services have just muddied the water. I bet in a few years time we will get to the stage whereby LARS or other controllers will be giving too much traffic info to aircraft under a BS - one of the reasons why the change was brought in as FIS had degenerated into a quasi RIS.
Re-education would have been better instead of changing the old services. Now although you sohuldn't give traffic info under a BS, controllers have a moral obligation to do so if they believe that a flight is in danger.
It then comes down to what constitutes 'being in danger' and how individual controllers assess this. As the boundaries get fuzzy, giving traffic info will become more and more regular until in 5 or 10 years time (at the latest) controllers will once again be 'over controllng', mainly because by doing so they think they will be giving a better service.
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Totally agree with "Anotherthing". I think the over controlling is already happening. Where generic traffic info should be used under a BS, people are giving specific traffic info to cover themselves. Re-education should have been the way forward.
My biggest concern is that we will get into the "cry wolf syndrome". where pilots think a unit or person give traffic info when it is not needed and it will be ignored when it is relevant.
"grabbers" perception of the type of services and who provides what and where shows more education is needed on the changes.
My biggest concern is that we will get into the "cry wolf syndrome". where pilots think a unit or person give traffic info when it is not needed and it will be ignored when it is relevant.
"grabbers" perception of the type of services and who provides what and where shows more education is needed on the changes.
Last edited by rogervisual; 30th Oct 2009 at 13:51.
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Talking to our SRG man the reason the name changes came about was a European thing in that the word "Radar" could not be mentioned whilst giving the service name........However I totally agree as I spend a fair bit of my time giving talks ref ATC to flying clubs etc it is quite clear all is not full understood.
In days gone by you got what it said on the tin....i.e A Radar Information service would suggest that radar was being used......A flight Information service would suggest Information was being given.
The ammount of times I now get asked for a "Basic Information service" is amazing!!........Oh well back to sleep now for me on a very quiet day on the FIR sector
In days gone by you got what it said on the tin....i.e A Radar Information service would suggest that radar was being used......A flight Information service would suggest Information was being given.
The ammount of times I now get asked for a "Basic Information service" is amazing!!........Oh well back to sleep now for me on a very quiet day on the FIR sector
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I'm bored, so here's my take on this FIS thing.
Flight Information Service is, and always has been, one of the Air Traffic Services, along with Air Traffic Control Service, Air Traffic Advisory Service, and Alerting Service. FIS, as one of these Air Traffic Services, is exactly what it says: a service provided for the purpose of supplying advice and information useful for the safe and efficient conduct of flight. Along with Alerting Service, it is provided automatically in the background by all controllers and FISO's, regardless of the type of airspace or flight conditions.
Now the confusion. The UK is required by ICAO to provide FIS throughout its airspace. But the aviation community decided long ago that outside CAS it would like something more than just a FIS. Hence RAS and RIS. These now defunct 'types of service' have been fiddled about with, and have re-emerged as four new types of service - Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction and Procedural. Their titles are fairly descriptive, but none actually carry the title of FIS. So in order to comply with ICAO requirements the UK bundled these types of services together in a 'suite of services' called the UK Flight Information Services. This suite of services is generically referred to as ATSOCAS (Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace).
So: In airspace classes A to E you automatically get a FIS (and Alerting Service), but no reference to it will be made by the controller. In Class F and G airspace you are required to ask for one of the types of service (BS, TS, DS or Procedural). The controller / FISO is required to state which of these types of service he will provide. Whichever he provides will comply with the ICAO requirements for a FIS, but the words 'Flight Information Service' willl not be used.
What I can't understand is why, over 100 years after Wilbur and Orville started this flying game, nobody can write rules and regulations without causing even more confusion and misunderstanding.
Flight Information Service is, and always has been, one of the Air Traffic Services, along with Air Traffic Control Service, Air Traffic Advisory Service, and Alerting Service. FIS, as one of these Air Traffic Services, is exactly what it says: a service provided for the purpose of supplying advice and information useful for the safe and efficient conduct of flight. Along with Alerting Service, it is provided automatically in the background by all controllers and FISO's, regardless of the type of airspace or flight conditions.
Now the confusion. The UK is required by ICAO to provide FIS throughout its airspace. But the aviation community decided long ago that outside CAS it would like something more than just a FIS. Hence RAS and RIS. These now defunct 'types of service' have been fiddled about with, and have re-emerged as four new types of service - Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction and Procedural. Their titles are fairly descriptive, but none actually carry the title of FIS. So in order to comply with ICAO requirements the UK bundled these types of services together in a 'suite of services' called the UK Flight Information Services. This suite of services is generically referred to as ATSOCAS (Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace).
So: In airspace classes A to E you automatically get a FIS (and Alerting Service), but no reference to it will be made by the controller. In Class F and G airspace you are required to ask for one of the types of service (BS, TS, DS or Procedural). The controller / FISO is required to state which of these types of service he will provide. Whichever he provides will comply with the ICAO requirements for a FIS, but the words 'Flight Information Service' willl not be used.
What I can't understand is why, over 100 years after Wilbur and Orville started this flying game, nobody can write rules and regulations without causing even more confusion and misunderstanding.