Solent CTA / SOU CTR IFR Clearance

[DFC]

Roffa,

You are of course correct - it is a joke - not a single IFR flight departing Farnborough expects to be refused entry to the ATS structure and not a single one will have planned to hold somewhere outside. At best you are going to have some extra low level traffic over the channel.

Fairoaks is designated by the UK authorities as an IFR airport. It has no IFR facilities - ATC, airspace, approach procedures.
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anotherthing,

FL70 is below the minimum level that is accepted in the LTMA for cruise.

Fairoaks is one of the LTMA airports. The overflight level restriction does not apply.

Of course you may be able to explain why you would prefer a flight from Fairoaks to HAZEL to climb to FL90 rather than FL70 (or any lower level)?

---------

3Miles,

you even here say on one hand that no pilot expects to be refused entry, and then go onto quote the r/t phrase "Remain outside ...." and that works fine? Hmmmm isn't that a refusal to enter controlled airspace?

I have to correct your readback of what I said. Most importantly I included the required Expect Onward Clearance time...

It is not a refusal of entry. It is telling the pilot that they can not enter now but they can "expect" their clearance at the specified time. Therefore the flight holds until the specified time and has a reasonable expectation that they will receive the clearance.

Every pilot when told nothing more than "remain outside" should respone with "request onward clearance time". ATC are required to provide it. Just like an EAT it is not optional and has a number of important consequences for both ATC and the pilot.

Its quite simple....fly inside of controlled airspace, to get the service guaranteed, fly outside...you may get a service, you may get a join, hey it may even be the join you planned for, but then again you may get none, or only part of it.

No problem - provide controlled airspace (Class E is suficient) round Farnborough etc so that IFR flights departing from IFR airports can remain in controlled airspace from the runway. Otherwise, explain how a Farnborough clutch departure can get airborne and remain within controlled airspace.

I think that you should contact the safety people at TC. Ask them about their experience of flights joining controlled airspace who were kept below and who subsequently had an RA. Ask them what their policy is now about getting such flights into controlled airspace ASAP and why they will not put such flights at risk by someone in the real world saying

If the controller chooses to he may not provide him with any service, DS or TS, or even BS if he so wishes, and in fact at 3000ft outside controlled airspace anywhere near GWC towards SAM a BS is about all I would give in the height of the summer, because anything else would be physically impossible to provide with the amount of unknown traffic out there.

My recomendation - IFR-IMC - always ask for DS. Even if it is refused, when the RA happens the report is better to include the phrase "I asked for DS but it was refused". --- It is the pilot's version of "remain outside controlled airspace"

Finally one must wonder why not a single controller who works in the airspace concerned recognised that the answer to the original question is that such flights must route via HAZEL?

Regards,

DFC

[3miles]

Roffa

you are right, he's insane.

I give up he quiet clearly is a danger to all those who work or operate within the UK airspace. He is also gives Pilots a bad name by his insane ramblings.

All I hope is that he doesn't fly on or near anything I am ever in. and I don't ever have the displeasure of having to talk to him on the RT.

I strongly suggest DFC that you yourself get a better grasp of the real world of aviation, because your present attitude, and now also your complete lack of appreciation for how your lovely book answer procedures, you like to quote, actually operate in the real world, all show that what I said before about your knowledge is in fact wrong, you really do not have a clue. You if its not already occurred are an accident or incident waiting to happen.

I shan't bother responding to anymore of your posts, purely on the basis that you really don't benefit any discussion at all, you have no ability to think past the end of your own cockpit, or some book answer. Your closed minded approach is unhelpful to anyone, I'm all for a good discussion, and think its good to see multiple ideas thrown on the table to hopefully gain some better understanding. But quite simply unless we all disengage our brains, throw away all our experience and knowledge of how ATC actually works, and accept that you as a pilot understand the complete works of every part of the UK airspace, CAA rules, procedures, MATS pt 1, and all the other ramblings you quote, nobody will ever agree with you.

Safe Flying...look forward to seeing your report.

just one final note for you before I go,that RA you were talking about...perhaps if you get the chance to pop into solent ATC one sunny Sunday afternoon and take a look at their radar screen to have a look at all the 7000 codes you worry about having RA's against because the controller as given you a BS or TS, you'll be surprised to actually see that in fact you will be grateful for the RA, because more than 50% of the contacts on the controllers screen will be primary only and your lovely TCAS I'm afraid doesn't see them...of course we could plaster the UK with controlled airspace just for you, although those 50% of primary contacts that are happily doing their own thing outside of controlled airspace who don't have a functioning transponder or even in some cases an RT license, that don't want to be controlled, might not be particularly happy with that suggestion, but hey i forgot again, you the only pilot flying that we need to worry about.

[DFC]

3 Miles,

The only toy thing that you did not throw out of your pram was the "Solent is not a LARS unit"

Did you ever think that the reason why pilot's views of ATC are different from yours is that pilots experience a wide variety of ATC providers every working day.

Who is in a better position to suggest how it should be done - the person who has seen 10 different ways of doing it (some good some bad) or the person who has only ever experienced doing it one way?

If you work as an ATCO at Southampton (or other NATS unit) then you will have been told by your company not to delay joining IFR flights. Perhaps you don't agree with being told that but company policy is very clear and based on safety.

Regards,

DFC

[anotherthing]

I think that you should contact the safety people at TC. Ask them about their experience of flights joining controlled airspace who were kept below and who subsequently had an RA. Ask them what their policy is now about getting such flights into controlled airspace ASAP and why they will not put such flights at risk by someone in the real world saying

Don't know who you have been talking to at TC - but it is not policy, new or not. It has always been best practice to get traffic INCAS ASAP, but what do you want us to do? Make phone calls to EGLL etc cancelling free-flow on their SLOTted flights so that we can give immediate clearance to an aircraft from an airfield lying OUTCAS?

If you work as an ATCO at Southampton (or other NATS unit) then you will have been told by your company not to delay joining IFR flights.

Again, not true. Don't know who you have been talking to, but they are feeding you some real porkers.

As you are well aware, DFC, Class A airspace is a known traffic environment. We delay entry into it for A/C OUTCAS because entry at a particular time would mean a confliction with the known traffic. We all know that there is unknown traffic OUTCAS that may also be causing a confliction, but as it is unknown i.e. intentions unknown, there is nothing we can do about it. We, at TC, seeing as you have used TC as an example work in a known traffic environment... end of story. We separate known traffic, we don't have time, or the equipment, to separate from unknown traffic OUTCAS.

Any aircraft speaking to an Area TC Controller will be given BS at the best... it is policy to give nothing more.

The very fact that a lot of time it takes 5-10 minutes for the aircraft in question to get airborne after we have been given notification means cancelling free-flow would not work.

If a pilot wishes to take off from an airport OUTCAS cannot guarantee remaining VMC whilst remaining clear, then it is his or her lookout (sic). Not ideal but until the likes of Fairoaks and more importantly, Farnborough are afforded Classified Airspace protection, that is the way it is going to be. How much fun will that be if Farnborough get to double their passeneger numbers as they are hoping to do??


You want it to run smoothly? Then make the whole of the LTMA from surface to upper level boundary Class A. Most ATCOs who don't fly privately would welcome that. Most ATCOs who fly privately would acknowledge it would make our job easier and ultimately the whole process safer if we did that.

The GA community might have something to say about it though...

[Roffa]

DFC,

Who is in a better position to suggest how it should be done - the person who has seen 10 different ways of doing it (some good some bad) or the person who has only ever experienced doing it one way?

In your case would that be VATSIM, IVAO, some other PC based flight sim/ATC programme?

[anotherthing]

Every pilot when told nothing more than "remain outside" should respone with "request onward clearance time". ATC are required to provide it. Just like an EAT it is not optional and has a number of important consequences for both ATC and the pilot

DFC, you really need to come and see how ATC works, for real, not in simulators.

Sure whenever I tell you to Remain OUTCAS is could give you an OCT, but I will give you one that is 30 or 30 minutes away, because I know that I will be able to fulfill that obligation.

What I could not, and therefore would not do, is try to give you one with 'accuracy' - free-flow from the numerous TMA airports means that you get your clearance as and when we can fit you in - when you have a departure screen full of pending departures that are taxying, it is not always safe, or prudent, to give clearance to some crappy little aircraft tha climbs and flies ridiculously slowly.

You will get your clearance, but when I (who has the full picure, not some TCAS induced supposition) deem it to be safe. If you are a jet with good climb performance, you will get that clearance quicker because using my skill as an ATCO I know what will work. All your talk about ATCOs who only do it one way is utter tosh - the reason they are ATCOs is because of flexibility and their ability to change practices depending on numerous different scenarios.

DFC, please visit an ATC unit and start some dialogue - you will learn something.

[DFC]

but until the likes of Fairoaks and more importantly, Farnborough are afforded Classified Airspace protection

Now there is something that we agree on. However, while you seem to only think in terms of Class A, most pilots will have experience of every airspace class and based on that experience, it is clear that Class E would be the best solution in this case.

I was not talking about experience of individual ATCO performances but the system as a whole.

As for the Expect onward clearance time - Sure no problem - give an EOC time an hour away from the ETA at the fix. Then sit back and wait for the "we can hold until (..time...) before diverting."

We ask for DS not because we think that TC will always provide it but because a) our ops manual requires it and b) any subsequent investiagtion which dwells on the issue will revolve round the refusal of the service rather than the fact that it was never asked for.

However, that is irrelevant with Farnborough clutch departures since one would reasonably expect that a flight being held outside with an EOC time 30 mnutes away would be working Farnborough who can and will provide a DS rather than being limited to a BS with TC.

Regards,

DFC

[anotherthing]

However, that is irrelevant with Farnborough clutch departures since one would reasonably expect that a flight being held outside with an EOC time 30 mnutes away would be working Farnborough who can and will provide a DS rather than being limited to a BS with TC.

Again, not how it works. May I respectfully suggest you visit either TC or Farnborough ATC? Both paties (pilot and ATC) will benefit from such visits but it will show you how LF clutch departures are handled.

LF calls TC and speaks to the coordinator for departure approval (not departure release, but approval, as release implies a IFR service from TC from th eoutset and management deem that to be too dodgy). No OCT is given and no indication of when you will be given joining clearance is passed - approval means merely that looking at current workload, the controller can handle an extra flight (taking into account the joining fix, aircraft type etc for complexity issues), at the time of the phone call and in the immediate future.

The aircraft gets airborne and subject to Farnborough traffic is given a climb which will keep it clear of CAS.

90% of the time the aircraft will be instructed to remain clear and handed over to TC for joining clearance. Fanborough will do this when the aircraft is clear of immediate confliction.

About 10% of the time, if there are too many conflictors, LF will call for higher to get you above traffic, possibly into CAS. Oftne this will just be 5000' under a Heathrow or Gatwick departue, so you could pop into then back out of CAS.

TC will give you further clearance as and when it can, sometimes you will be waiting a good 5 or 1o minutes especially towards the Hazel/GWC area as this is quite a busy area for TC/LF/HI.

LF departues via CPT tend to work better as there is more flexibility with airspace to the south of CPT, if you were to be put on a westerly heading (for example) for join.

The real problem is for training flights from Oxford to Bournemouth (for example). They tend to be poor performers and getting clearance to join at CPT at even FL70 can be tricky.

The bottom line is, Farnborough will not hold onto you under a DS until TC can give you joining clearance - they will hold onto you until they deem you to be free of confliction... what happens betwen then and joining clearacne from TC is the sticky bit, as far as you, the pilot are concerned.

Needless to say, if you are in an aircraft with decent performance, you will get clearance sooner, as it is easier to integrate you with the other traffic.

[DFC]

anotherthing,

You can not give an "Expect Onward Clearance Time" to an aircraft that is not airborne. Once airborne, a hold or delay in giving an joining clearance has to include an expect onward clearane time.

You have given a good basic description of what currently happens but nothing new. Indeed and I must admit that I have never got even close to GWC without being in CAS.

Please refresh what happens when an aircraft which has called has a comms failure before the joining clearance can be issued.

In the absence of an expect onward clearance time watching that high performer set 7600 and start climbing at 4000ft per minute towards FL450 along the flight planned route might leave you wishing you had complied with the requirement to issue an EOC or that the 7600 would only climb at 500ft per minute, 100Kt to 6000ft.

No scrub that - just watching the flight climb into the base of controlled airspace in response to an RA might get your heart pumping a bit faster - especially since the reason why the flight was not climbed by you into CAS is usually because the level above the base is occupied!!

Regards,

DFC

[anotherthing]

DFC,

as you have not been given an airways joining clearance, you would be in very hot water if you did the above.

The clearance you would have had would have been remain OUTCAS.

[DFC]

No pilot will ever get into hot water for complying with an RA. ATC may be asked what (if anything) they could have done to prevent the RA happening in the first place.

The comms failure procedures depend on the flight being either VMC or IMC. If IMC, then follow the procedures to destination.

That is why many other countries require flights departing from VFR aerodromes to remain VFR until the IFR clearance is received. If they get a comms failure before they get the clearance then the VMC procedure applies.

Unfortunately, in the UK many VFR aerodromes such as Fairoaks are designated as IFR aerodromes and flights can depart IFR in IMC. Quite ironic that a place like Fairoaks can have IFR arrivals but can not have instrument approach procedures unless there is ATC. They can however have aircraft departing IFR into IMC at 50ft, 30 seconds apart with the faster one behind. Safe?

Even MATS1 makes it clear what is going to happen when the IFR flight you are talking to has a comms failure;

Receipt of flight plan data does not constitute a clearance, except that when ATC has acknowledged receipt of the information from an aircraft in flight and radio failure occurs before a clearance can be transmitted, the aircraft may be expected to proceed in accordance with the flight plan. Aircraft should be given a clearance in reply to an in-flight request, but if this is not possible the aircraft are to be advised to remain outside controlled airspace, when to expect clearance and given a time check.

If you read the above, you will also see that you do not give a clearance to aircraft to remain outside controlled airspace - you "advise" them to do so.

The situation is not ideal by a long way for both ATC and the operators. We have requsted more appropriate airspace and procedures. Not nice but I think that there will eventually be a "we told you so" situation and then things might change.

Regards,

DFC

[Roffa]

DFC,

Go look in the AIP and read what it says about (not) entering CAS if you haven't yet received a specific joining clearance.

As for an RA, it should be a vertical maneuver of a few hundred feet, which is fine and if it may slightly infringe CAS before returning to previous level that's no big issue. It's not a climb to flight level nosebleed and continuance en-route. Don't consider it a 'safety reason' for entering or continuing either else what are you doing operating on your PC sim from an airfield outside CAS in the first place? You want max safety and protection, don't fly in Indian Country.

Sorry.

[DFC]

Go look in the AIP and read what it says about (not) entering CAS if you haven't yet received a specific joining clearance.

I am very much aware of what is says;

Those flights, that have not received an ATC clearance, should not enter controlled or advisory airspace unless an overriding safety reason compels entry.

Note that the word "should" is used.

A G5 departs Farnborough for say Rome with the weather RVR400 OVC001 and has a commsa failure before they get the clearance to join.

Give me a safe option for the flight that does not involve controlled airspace and that you would expect the Australian crew to be familiar with.

Even bumbling round low level to somewhere like Manston or dodging everything all the way to Exeter would in most people's mind be more dangerous than doing what ATC should expect when they see the 7600. i.e. the standard international communications failure procedure and operating in accordance with the current flight plan.

At least with Farnborough, you will have apre-note of the departure. Imagine something departing from a VFR airfield further away and you don't have the details. First you know is when that 7600 which has suddenly appeared crosses the boundary line in the climb to their cruise level (because the 7 minutes is up).

You can take it that if I departed Farnborough (or Fairoaks or elsewhere) and had a comms failure in IMC before you could give me the clearance I would not be faffing about low level in crap weather trying to drag out the jeppesens and find an aerodrome with suitable facilities which is not in controlled airspace. I would be doing the standard IMC procedure and yes, I will enter controlled airspace. The simple reason is because I deem that to be the more safe of the two options.

Until there is suitable airspace and procedures, the risk of the unexpected radio fail joiner will continue.

[kats-I]

Finals19

Who'd have thought a little question like that would have given such a debate...bet you wished you hadn't asked now!

Happy flying whichever route you decide on.

[Roffa]

DFC,

Anyone can always come up with convoluted and remote chance scenarios to support their argument, doesn't mean they're necessarily correct though. When you do (regularly) I'm afraid it just makes me further convinced about your detachment from reality.

[anotherthing]

DFC, your example is very poor. You would be somewhere between Farnborough and GWC, chances are you've been transferred from LF to TC.

Most likely the comms failure would come on point of changing frequency (supposition based on my extensive time flying professionally in previous career).

You will be on an allocated squawk with your callsign displaying. LF, TC and En-route will know who you are. You realise you have suffered RTF so you should squawk 7600.

We still hold your callsign and ident but now know you have suffered RTF.

Now the book might say that you continue as Flight Planned in the event of RTF, but you have not yet been cleared INCAS. Your clearance limit is effectively to remain OUTCAS.

Those flights, that have not received an ATC clearance, should not enter controlled or advisory airspace unless an overriding safety reason compels entry.

Now where is the flight safety implication in a simple RTF?? There is not a huge one. Being 15 miles from Farnborough, with LF and TC knowing exactly who you are, a return to LF would be what I would consider more reasonable to do, instead of flying all the way over the continent, which entails entering CAS when you have not been cleared.

This is especially pertinent because you have just dfeparted LF, know the airfield, know what the weather is, know that they have you identified etc...

The quote above that you have used is not a free pass to enter CAS to join your FP route citing safety reasons, it is there to cover times when, for example a TCAS RA Climb, you have to enter CAS without clearance in order to ensure aircraft safety.

If you think it is acceptable that upon suffering RTF before GWC, you enter CAS without clearance and fly all the way to your destination without RT, then you need to get a grip on reality. Think about how much disruption your flight will cause

If for no other reason think 'security'.

Then think about 'common sense'.

[DFC]

anotherthing,

I am surprised that with your "extensive time flying professionally in previous career" you do not realise that as I described in my post, a departure in weather that is below arrival minima can not return to the aerodrome of departure.

Perhaps you think that flights should be limited to departure minima which are equal to or above arrival minima? - A serious question in relation to aerodromes OCAS and VFR aerodromes in particular!!

The "security" issue you use is also rubbish. Aircraft interceptions do happen. Mostly for "sleeping radios" or where the pilot is blisfully unaware that they are out of range of the ATC unit that they are tuned to and the transponder is not set to comms fail.

If the UK government wishes to provide some assistance in the form of an aircraft that can guide me in my comms failure situation to a safe landing then I have no problems with that. Just don't expect me to sit at GWC flying triangles to try and get one!!

-------------

Perhaps, we should ask Finals19 what they would do in the following scenario;

They depart Fairoaks, 1000 ceiling and 1800m visibility. The weather is the same over all of the UK.

When level at 2400ft in IMC, they experience a communications failure.

Based on a routing to the west and then south (remaining outsie controlled airspace until the Solent CTA boundary north of BIA) to Bournemouth what would they do?

Based on a filed flight plan to fly the standard outbound route and join at HAZEL (4000ft to make it easy) what would they do?

I bet that if you did a survey of crews who use Farnborough, aside from a few operators with lots of local knowledge, the comms failure scenario would result in an entry into controlled airspace. Furthermore, many crews would not realise that they are in class G and don't have a continuous ATC service from the moment they call for start.

As a pilot with "extensive time flying professionally in previous career"which of the following is less dangerous for a public transport operation;

1. Having no communications, flying in airspace where there is a lot of traffic IFR and VFR with no equipment requirements and most not receiving an ATS while trying to figure out where there is an aerodrome at which you can make an instrument approach in IMC but you can't be sure if that proceure will be available or if ATC will be available of that there will not be other IFR flights holding and following that procedure at the same time as you.

or

2. Fly in airspace that is a known traffic environment and covered by ATC radar surveilance. All traffic will have the required equipment and will be not only deconflicted from you but also told about your situation. The flight proceeds according to what was planned to an aerodrome that had been checked in advance for performance, NOTAMs, availability of safety services and appropriate weather.

[anotherthing]

If you re-read your post, it infers that the weather given is at Rome. Admittedley rather a strange inclusion if it is read literally, but then again you were using a 'clutching at straws' example.

Poor grammatical structure methinks.

You cannot legislate for every eventuality, that's why ATCOs and Pilots get paid good money - to use common sense to achieve a safe outing.

Blindly entering CAS without a clearance because you have had an RT fail is not common sense. Neither is interpreting rules to suit your flight i.e. the comment about indavertant entry INCAS due to safety reasons.

Furthermore, many crews would not realise that they are in class G and don't have a continuous ATC service from the moment they call for start.

That constitutes poor planning and preparation in my book. The most simple thing to do in aviation is to plan. There is no excuse for not doing so, and not knowing the airspace you will be operating in is extremely shoddy.

[gijoe]

Anyway....thank you Solent workers for letting me through whenever it is not too busy and for being generally very helpful.

It is very obvious why it is the most infringed area in the UK.

What was helo Tango Papa 1 doing on task that took him 1.5nm inside near Winchester at about 1600L yesterday?

(And this is for my own education and not for any other untoward reason)

G

[bookworm]

Now the book might say that you continue as Flight Planned in the event of RTF, but you have not yet been cleared INCAS. Your clearance limit is effectively to remain OUTCAS.
...
The quote above that you have used is not a free pass to enter CAS to join your FP route citing safety reasons

Actually, it doesn't have to be.

AIP ENR 1.1
4.2.3 Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC)
4.2.3.1 A VFR flight experiencing communication failure shall:
When VMC can be maintained, the pilot should set transponder on Mode A, Code 7600 with Mode C and land at the nearest
suitable aerodrome. Pilots should take account of visual landing aids and keep watch for instructions as may be issued by
visual signals from the ground. The pilot should report arrival to the appropriate ATC unit as soon as possible.
When VMC cannot be maintained, the pilot should adopt the procedures for IMC detailed below.
4.2.3.2 Subject to the provisions of paragraph 4.2.2.3, an IFR flight experiencing communication failure in VMC shall:
When VMC can be maintained, the pilot should set transponder to Mode A, Code 7600 with Mode C and land at the nearest
suitable aerodrome. Pilots should take account of visual landing aids and keep watch for instructions as may be issued by
visual signals from the ground. The pilot should report arrival to the appropriate ATC unit as soon as possible. If it does not
appear feasible to continue the flight in VMC, or if it would be inappropriate to follow this procedure, the pilot should adopt
the procedures for flights in IMC detailed below.
Note: Pilots already in receipt of an ATC clearance may enter controlled airspace and follow the procedures referred to
above. Those flights, that have not received an ATC clearance, should not enter controlled or advisory
airspace unless an overriding safety reason compels entry.

4.2.4 Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC)
4.2.4.1 A flight experiencing communication failure in IMC shall:
(a) Operate secondary radar transponder on Mode A, Code 7600 with Mode C.
(b) (i) Maintain, for a period of 7 minutes, the current speed and last assigned level or minimum safe altitude, if this higher.
The period of seven minutes begins when the transponder is set to 7600 and this should be done as soon as the pilot
has detected communications failure.
...

Note that the issue of a clearance is only relevant in VMC, as a note to 4.2.3.2. In IMC, the standard procedure in 4.2.4 is to be followed whether or not a clearance has been received.

(I know, I know, it's distasteful to give a troll the kiss of life... )