London Heli-lanes - Tolerance
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London Heli-lanes - Tolerance
Hello,
I am a military instructor whom recently took some of my Squadron through the heli-lanes. It became apparent that there were gaps in the knowledge of some of the aircrew. I have put together a presentation with all the relevant rulings and info regarding flight into London CTZ.
I was questioned as to why they need to follow the routes slavishly and hold within the bounds on the Thames in a twin. I replied "because that is what is published!".
I was always lead to believe that there was a radar display of aircraft track, showing departure from the lane?
If so how accurate is it?...and under what situations will aircraft off track be requested to make good or leave the CTZ?
Regards
Ralph
I am a military instructor whom recently took some of my Squadron through the heli-lanes. It became apparent that there were gaps in the knowledge of some of the aircrew. I have put together a presentation with all the relevant rulings and info regarding flight into London CTZ.
I was questioned as to why they need to follow the routes slavishly and hold within the bounds on the Thames in a twin. I replied "because that is what is published!".
I was always lead to believe that there was a radar display of aircraft track, showing departure from the lane?
If so how accurate is it?...and under what situations will aircraft off track be requested to make good or leave the CTZ?
Regards
Ralph
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Ralph.
We have the Helilanes on our radar map. The problem is that you the route (such as H3 near teddington) is only "deemed" to be separated from 27L at LHR if you are on the route. The minute you come off it geographically or by level you may set the radar fashing red.... which means paperwork and possibly a G/A at LHR due to TCAS RA.
I have sent you a PM as I presented to RAF Odiham on the subject at the Station Flight Safety Day.
Alan
We have the Helilanes on our radar map. The problem is that you the route (such as H3 near teddington) is only "deemed" to be separated from 27L at LHR if you are on the route. The minute you come off it geographically or by level you may set the radar fashing red.... which means paperwork and possibly a G/A at LHR due to TCAS RA.
I have sent you a PM as I presented to RAF Odiham on the subject at the Station Flight Safety Day.
Alan
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And, if too many aircraft cause safety issues on any particular route, there's always potential for it to be closed. Remember the bit of H2 that used to follow the M4 from LHR into town? It was deemed separated from the 27L/R approaches but too many issues of aircraft not flying the route accurately (even setting off down the A4 instead of the M4!) and getting a bit too adjacent to LHR landing traffic led to it being withdrawn.
In places you really are in quite close proximity to LHR traffic, certainly less than what should otherwise be 'standard' separation. You really do need to fly the routes as accurately as possible, both laterally and not above the 'not above' altitude.
Cracking views of London though
In places you really are in quite close proximity to LHR traffic, certainly less than what should otherwise be 'standard' separation. You really do need to fly the routes as accurately as possible, both laterally and not above the 'not above' altitude.
Cracking views of London though
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Ralph Malph,
NATS have produced a DVD briefing for flying on the Helilanes. If you want a copy just contact the Safety Department at Swanwick and they will get you a copy!
NATS have produced a DVD briefing for flying on the Helilanes. If you want a copy just contact the Safety Department at Swanwick and they will get you a copy!
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Just wondering why the Heathrow zone is class A and not Class D.
You can keep the heli-lanes and their routings but when an aircraft deviates from them close in to EGLL (inadvertently or on purpose)you haven't had an automatic loss of separation. ATC still controls who can come in and out of the zone so it wouldn't mean a free for all.
When CAT A traffic (police or helimed) needed to get to sites within 3 miles of the approach or departure tracks it was a nightmare...and always seemed illogical.
I am presuming it has been requested in the past to be changed? Any plans for this in the future.
You can keep the heli-lanes and their routings but when an aircraft deviates from them close in to EGLL (inadvertently or on purpose)you haven't had an automatic loss of separation. ATC still controls who can come in and out of the zone so it wouldn't mean a free for all.
When CAT A traffic (police or helimed) needed to get to sites within 3 miles of the approach or departure tracks it was a nightmare...and always seemed illogical.
I am presuming it has been requested in the past to be changed? Any plans for this in the future.
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<<When CAT A traffic (police or helimed) needed to get to sites within 3 miles of the approach or departure tracks it was a nightmare...and always seemed illogical.>>
I did it for 31 years and never found it to be a problem. I'm all in favour of Class A in busy areas to ensure safety. What would be the advantages of making the London Zone Class D?
I did it for 31 years and never found it to be a problem. I'm all in favour of Class A in busy areas to ensure safety. What would be the advantages of making the London Zone Class D?
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I really don't see what class A airspace has got to do with safety. Any kind of airspace that you need a clearance to operate in gives the controller the abilities to control his workload. Why is class A by itself safer than class B,C, or D? Only because there is no VFR allowed there?
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What would be the advantages of making the London Zone Class D?
I am not advocating a free for all...and pilots would be expected to stick within published limits on the routes. I just think it would allow ATC and pilots greater flexibility to get into and out of central London.
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<<I just think it would allow ATC and pilots greater flexibility to get into and out of central London.>>
Most of the helicopter routes cause no problem at all. It's those close in to Heathrow which may do so.
Access to central London by helicopters has little to do with the airspace classification but has more to do with single-engined aircraft flying over built up areas. Twin-engined helicopters can be routed on direct tracks away from the heli lanes and, so far as I know, there are no restrictions on single-engined helicopters using the heli routes as a result of the Class A classification. Equally, twin-engined light aircraft can also fly SVFR over London and anywhere else in the zone as long as they do not conflict with Heathrow, Northolt and London City traffic.
Most of the helicopter routes cause no problem at all. It's those close in to Heathrow which may do so.
Access to central London by helicopters has little to do with the airspace classification but has more to do with single-engined aircraft flying over built up areas. Twin-engined helicopters can be routed on direct tracks away from the heli lanes and, so far as I know, there are no restrictions on single-engined helicopters using the heli routes as a result of the Class A classification. Equally, twin-engined light aircraft can also fly SVFR over London and anywhere else in the zone as long as they do not conflict with Heathrow, Northolt and London City traffic.
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MAC/HD.
The A v D debate has continued at apace. Things are unlikely to change - too many opposing - not least BAA and BALPA.
There are a few helilane changes though in the making - and some of the rules are being improved.
There may even be a freelane into Battersea!
We shall see..... it might be all done by July 2010 when I get back.
(I did my last morning shift today!!)
The A v D debate has continued at apace. Things are unlikely to change - too many opposing - not least BAA and BALPA.
There are a few helilane changes though in the making - and some of the rules are being improved.
There may even be a freelane into Battersea!
We shall see..... it might be all done by July 2010 when I get back.
(I did my last morning shift today!!)
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<< Equally, twin-engined light aircraft can also fly SVFR over London and anywhere else in the zone as long as they do not conflict with Heathrow, Northolt and London City traffic. >>
Yes that is fine . . done it loads . . . both flying and as SVFR Dir 3 . . . BUT
On a cold wet windy night . . . you know, can't see a lot through the Tower windows, well actually you can, except every light has a million reflections.
There on the DFTI is the Heli crosser running in over Northolt towards Hayes and Sipson to Hold . . as usual.
WHAT . . . the C*** is he doing . . . B***** great orbit . . that ain't right is it boss ?
And of course it was not . . . still don't know how We / WU fell for that one.
Req SVFR transit H9 . . . the heli was in fact a Cessna 421 ??!! (doing half rate turns if my memory serves me correctly straight towards 10L landers and WU corridor .)
Not a lot of room to play with . . but HDG and Level to Director, who as usual, sorted it.
Just another evening on 118.7 Air Arrivals.
Keep it up people
Yes that is fine . . done it loads . . . both flying and as SVFR Dir 3 . . . BUT
On a cold wet windy night . . . you know, can't see a lot through the Tower windows, well actually you can, except every light has a million reflections.
There on the DFTI is the Heli crosser running in over Northolt towards Hayes and Sipson to Hold . . as usual.
WHAT . . . the C*** is he doing . . . B***** great orbit . . that ain't right is it boss ?
And of course it was not . . . still don't know how We / WU fell for that one.
Req SVFR transit H9 . . . the heli was in fact a Cessna 421 ??!! (doing half rate turns if my memory serves me correctly straight towards 10L landers and WU corridor .)
Not a lot of room to play with . . but HDG and Level to Director, who as usual, sorted it.
Just another evening on 118.7 Air Arrivals.
Keep it up people
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<<The A v D debate has continued at apace. Things are unlikely to change>>
Well, thank the Good Lord for that.
India99... know the feeling. JK had someone call on 119.9 one day to cross Heathrow from S-N... assumed it was a chopper. Cleard it to hold at Bedfont. Turned out to be another clockwork mouse!!!
Then, of course, there was the Viscount that came down H10.......
Well, thank the Good Lord for that.
India99... know the feeling. JK had someone call on 119.9 one day to cross Heathrow from S-N... assumed it was a chopper. Cleard it to hold at Bedfont. Turned out to be another clockwork mouse!!!
Then, of course, there was the Viscount that came down H10.......
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Yep . . and probably the wrong thread but my "little grey cells" recall a certain special Sunday in November . . . JH (?) was on 119.9 when a Blip was seen to be approaching the Temp Prohibited Area around the Cenotaph having crossed the Eastern CTR Bdy . . frantic calls to Battersea were to no avail, along with Blind Transmissions . . " unidentified aircraft etc etc etc "
I believe ( but will stand corrected ) to JH's horror the Aircraft then appeared to respond to his now raised voice ( a rare event for JH - the raised bit anyway) only to end up Turning over the exact point, pretty much in the middle of the 2 minutes silence . . .
It turned out to be a rather large green helicopter with unfortunate black crosses on the side ( Luftwaffe )
I would quite like to see the Log entries on that one.
Cheers . . 99
I believe ( but will stand corrected ) to JH's horror the Aircraft then appeared to respond to his now raised voice ( a rare event for JH - the raised bit anyway) only to end up Turning over the exact point, pretty much in the middle of the 2 minutes silence . . .
It turned out to be a rather large green helicopter with unfortunate black crosses on the side ( Luftwaffe )
I would quite like to see the Log entries on that one.
Cheers . . 99
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< 50 Years of Heathrow ATC book. >
Ta HD . . . I'll kick start the zimmer frame and get on down to the library.
Or maybe just put it on the Xmas pressie list !
( just Googled the above . . does BP or PB have any left ?? )
Cheers . . . 99
Ta HD . . . I'll kick start the zimmer frame and get on down to the library.
Or maybe just put it on the Xmas pressie list !
( just Googled the above . . does BP or PB have any left ?? )
Cheers . . . 99