ATC Phraseology
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ATC Phraseology
During a climb or descent in the TMA we get lots of heading and level changes. Why sometimes, does the heading change have degrees added at the end of transmission and sometimes not. I do have a recollection of reading the explanation somewhere, but have yet to find it in CAP 413.
I seem to remember that it was to distinguish between levels and headings if both were made in the same transmission, and then only if the heading finished with a zero.
Possibly a minor point, but I was asked whilst line training a colleague, and it's always nice to be able to provide an answer from the experts.
Thanks in anticipation.
I seem to remember that it was to distinguish between levels and headings if both were made in the same transmission, and then only if the heading finished with a zero.
Possibly a minor point, but I was asked whilst line training a colleague, and it's always nice to be able to provide an answer from the experts.
Thanks in anticipation.
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For all transmissions, with the exception of those used for surveillance radar approaches or precision radar approaches, the word 'degrees' shall be appended to heading figures where the heading ends in zero, or in cases where confusion or ambiguity may result.
Regards
Callum
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<<NATS best practice to use degrees after every heading now>>
......which demeans CAP413's deliberate distinction between headings ending in zero and headings ending in 5.
Not the first time that a nats so-called 'best practice' has contravened CAA CAP standards. We had it before with millibars. I blame some of the self-exalted, elitist, macho-posturing, misguided, prima-donna local competence examiners who are clearly continuing to interfere with CAA operational standards. nats is merely yet another ANSP, not the Regulator/Auditor, and should rein them in. It is not nats' job to unilaterally change the CAP rules. CAA ATSD should put its foot down.
Just my few-penn'orth....
......which demeans CAP413's deliberate distinction between headings ending in zero and headings ending in 5.
Not the first time that a nats so-called 'best practice' has contravened CAA CAP standards. We had it before with millibars. I blame some of the self-exalted, elitist, macho-posturing, misguided, prima-donna local competence examiners who are clearly continuing to interfere with CAA operational standards. nats is merely yet another ANSP, not the Regulator/Auditor, and should rein them in. It is not nats' job to unilaterally change the CAP rules. CAA ATSD should put its foot down.
Just my few-penn'orth....
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Internatioanally(ICAO) "degrees" is used only when you are instructed to turn a number of degrees, ie "turn left one-zero degrees". It shall not be used after a heading, ie. "turn left heading zero-one-zero". Be aware of this when you fly elsewhere.
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The statement above is not true.
According to Doc 9432 the word "degrees" MAY be omitted in relation to headings (and usually is).
According to Doc 9432 the word "degrees" MAY be omitted in relation to headings (and usually is).
Last edited by ramzez; 9th Jun 2009 at 14:26. Reason: Corrected the document number
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Originally Posted by ramzez
The statement above is not true.
According to Doc4444 the word "degrees" MAY be omitted in relation to headings (and usually is).
According to Doc4444 the word "degrees" MAY be omitted in relation to headings (and usually is).
According to Doc 4444 this is the phrases:
(I made "DEGREES" bold)
Originally Posted by doc4444
12.4.1.3 Vectoring Instructions
a) LEAVE (significant point) HEADING (three digits);
b) CONTINUE HEADING (three digits);
c) CONTINUE PRESENT HEADING;
d) FLY HEADING (three digits);
e) TURN LEFT (or RIGHT) HEADING (three digits) [reason];
f) TURN LEFT (or RIGHT) (number of degrees) DEGREES[reason];
g) STOP TURN HEADING (three digits);
h) FLY HEADING (three digits), WHEN ABLE PROCEED DIRECT
(name) (significant point);
a) LEAVE (significant point) HEADING (three digits);
b) CONTINUE HEADING (three digits);
c) CONTINUE PRESENT HEADING;
d) FLY HEADING (three digits);
e) TURN LEFT (or RIGHT) HEADING (three digits) [reason];
f) TURN LEFT (or RIGHT) (number of degrees) DEGREES[reason];
g) STOP TURN HEADING (three digits);
h) FLY HEADING (three digits), WHEN ABLE PROCEED DIRECT
(name) (significant point);
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While we are on the subject of RT, what about the Good Morning's, Good Afternoons, Good Day's, Good Bye's, etc....
Do the controllers get fed up of saying it 100's of times in one shift?
I personally do pass on a pleasant greeting, although sometimes you can tell that when London - for example - are very busy, the last thing they want to hear is extra chatter, and then I avoid it.
I feel that generally it helps the day pass, but are you guys the same?
The other thing that helps is hearing a yank struggling with a new frequency. After the 5th attempt, trust me, your frustration is felt and empathized with. Makes us laugh anyway as all that is missing is the FFS before you TX.
Do the controllers get fed up of saying it 100's of times in one shift?
I personally do pass on a pleasant greeting, although sometimes you can tell that when London - for example - are very busy, the last thing they want to hear is extra chatter, and then I avoid it.
I feel that generally it helps the day pass, but are you guys the same?
The other thing that helps is hearing a yank struggling with a new frequency. After the 5th attempt, trust me, your frustration is felt and empathized with. Makes us laugh anyway as all that is missing is the FFS before you TX.
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PAPI - 74, you may find this thread interesting: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/363...confusion.html
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to JohnnyEagle: sorry, I remembered the document incorrectly.
Doc 9432, Manual of Radiotelephony:
3.1.3 The following words may be omitted from transmissions provided that no confusion or ambiguity will result:
b) “DEGREES” in relation to radar headings.
Doc 9432, Manual of Radiotelephony:
3.1.3 The following words may be omitted from transmissions provided that no confusion or ambiguity will result:
b) “DEGREES” in relation to radar headings.
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Talkdownman - I couldn't have put it better! On the face of it NATS are becoming a bit of a prima donna pain in the neck, and might be the main reason for a lot of unnecessary changes in phraseology taking place at an ever-increasing rate.
Not referring to airways controllers here, or LHR/LGW/STN controllers, who haven't time to mess about, but many (non-airways, non terminal area) NATS units around the country seem to be training their controllers to issue warning instructions for a whole host of things they never used to issue, because they were not relevant to their responsibility, and still aren't.
Not referring to airways controllers here, or LHR/LGW/STN controllers, who haven't time to mess about, but many (non-airways, non terminal area) NATS units around the country seem to be training their controllers to issue warning instructions for a whole host of things they never used to issue, because they were not relevant to their responsibility, and still aren't.
