Vectoring in and out of Heathrow
Thread Starter
Vectoring in and out of Heathrow
Huge and many apologies as I am sure within 10,000 posts this has been covered in great detail before....but... I can only get through so many at a time.
When I arrive or depart The Green and Pleasant Land, This Other Eden, This Sceptred Isle (ok, you get the idea), I notice that no matter what time of the day or night I seem to be given a ton of turns just a bit to the left or right. 220, 225, 240, 245, 260, 275 on departure etc. CPT 5J the other day with no less that 14 turns before we were headed direct to somewhere at that was at 5 p.m.
Even overhead at cruise when transiting the upper airspace vectors are common. No one on TCAS that I can see but that admitedly does not put me in the director's chair. I am sure there is a reason and would appreciate the word on this. Thanks
When I arrive or depart The Green and Pleasant Land, This Other Eden, This Sceptred Isle (ok, you get the idea), I notice that no matter what time of the day or night I seem to be given a ton of turns just a bit to the left or right. 220, 225, 240, 245, 260, 275 on departure etc. CPT 5J the other day with no less that 14 turns before we were headed direct to somewhere at that was at 5 p.m.
Even overhead at cruise when transiting the upper airspace vectors are common. No one on TCAS that I can see but that admitedly does not put me in the director's chair. I am sure there is a reason and would appreciate the word on this. Thanks
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I did that job for 31 years and rarely made more than one heading change following the heading given by the tower on departure (which is issued by the radar controller by phone). During quiet periods the heading I'd given the tower was enough and I wouldn't change it. The problem is to get the outbound up through inbound traffic downwind for 09L. The techniques are "inside" - i.e. heading from the tower of around 270 to climb up inside the inbounds (not if you're a slow climber on a hot day), or "outside" - heading from the tower of around 220-230 and once past the inbound stream, right on to about 280 and away you go.
14 heading changes?? I accept what you say, but am amazed the guy had the time to read them all out!
14 heading changes?? I accept what you say, but am amazed the guy had the time to read them all out!
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Basically there are two reasons you will be put on a heading, tactically (i.e. positioning in a stream or for final) or for separation, sometimes both.
You will be well aware that you are being tactically positioned whilst inbound but in the en-route environment we will be positioning you outbound as well. It is common practice to vector an aircraft climbing through FL200 against traffic cruising at FL370 to get both aircraft line astern at FL370.
The lower aircraft may need to on a heading for lateral separation against aircraft above to facilitate the climb through. If there is more than one aircraft to get through this may result in several changes of heading. Remember that all the aircraft involved must be on a heading, the one climbing and all the aircraft it is climbing through.
When you are put on a heading for separation purposes the heading will be imposed well away from the collision point so it will rarely be immediately obvious in the cockpit what the traffic is. You will often be asked to turn 5 or 10 degrees as a result of a confliction 60 or 70 miles away with the traffic well over 100 miles from your position. If you were given a turn and the traffic was obvious on TCAS the turn instruction would probably be accompanied by “Avoiding Action” delivered with an appropriate degree of urgency!
All this vectoring is occurring within the confines of controlled airspace and these boundaries often mean more vectoring to make use of the limited amount of space available. For instance, you may be vectored into a hole in the traffic to allow climb (or descent) but then need to be vectored back to a position that will allow you to return to your flight planned route without leaving the airway system or penetrating an active danger area.
This is a pretty general overview. If you are really interested come and visit us at Swanwick, you would be more than welcome. With TC and AC in the same building you will be able to see how you are handled from leaving the Tower freq to leaving the London FIR.
You will be well aware that you are being tactically positioned whilst inbound but in the en-route environment we will be positioning you outbound as well. It is common practice to vector an aircraft climbing through FL200 against traffic cruising at FL370 to get both aircraft line astern at FL370.
The lower aircraft may need to on a heading for lateral separation against aircraft above to facilitate the climb through. If there is more than one aircraft to get through this may result in several changes of heading. Remember that all the aircraft involved must be on a heading, the one climbing and all the aircraft it is climbing through.
When you are put on a heading for separation purposes the heading will be imposed well away from the collision point so it will rarely be immediately obvious in the cockpit what the traffic is. You will often be asked to turn 5 or 10 degrees as a result of a confliction 60 or 70 miles away with the traffic well over 100 miles from your position. If you were given a turn and the traffic was obvious on TCAS the turn instruction would probably be accompanied by “Avoiding Action” delivered with an appropriate degree of urgency!
All this vectoring is occurring within the confines of controlled airspace and these boundaries often mean more vectoring to make use of the limited amount of space available. For instance, you may be vectored into a hole in the traffic to allow climb (or descent) but then need to be vectored back to a position that will allow you to return to your flight planned route without leaving the airway system or penetrating an active danger area.
This is a pretty general overview. If you are really interested come and visit us at Swanwick, you would be more than welcome. With TC and AC in the same building you will be able to see how you are handled from leaving the Tower freq to leaving the London FIR.
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CPT is a known traffic magnet. Within the TMA it is not unusual to have aircraft at or around CPT at every FL between FL70 to FL150, often more than one aircraft at each level.
Chances are that most of the headings are from TMA controllers, that's the nature of the beast due to the airspace. As you get higher, you tend to be on actual airways and therefore more likely to be established on a single heading.
However 14 turns is excessive, unless something out of the ordinary is happening. On a CPT departure on easterlies you could reasonably expect 1 or 2 headings from Director and maybe another two on the TMA freq (34.12). However depending what is going on you could have more.
Heading instructions
one after the other as you say seems very unlikely - I assume that was an easterly departure? All of those headings (if a true recollection of events) would have most likely been on the EGLL Dir frequency - very excessive and poor use of headings if the figures are true.
Chances are that most of the headings are from TMA controllers, that's the nature of the beast due to the airspace. As you get higher, you tend to be on actual airways and therefore more likely to be established on a single heading.
However 14 turns is excessive, unless something out of the ordinary is happening. On a CPT departure on easterlies you could reasonably expect 1 or 2 headings from Director and maybe another two on the TMA freq (34.12). However depending what is going on you could have more.
Heading instructions
220, 225, 240, 245, 260, 275
[devils advocate] You could just have been left heading south west for 8 or 9 miles before turning toward your destination. Perhaps the controller was trying to shave a couple of miles off your track while still taking you outside of the inbound? More headings = Less miles[/devils advocate]
ps. it can't be that green and pleasant if you live in the Vendee
ps. it can't be that green and pleasant if you live in the Vendee
Thread Starter
Thank you for the replies. I realizre that I need to clairify my remarks regard "14" heading assignments. That was from the time of departure until we finally reached cruise with only a couple on the Director's frequency. Departing LHR on the CPT 5J departure (going west) which, since off 9R, was changed by tower to 2 DME from LON right turn 220 climb to 6000. Then after we were established on the 220 we received quite a few further right turns in small increments. On this day last week they seemed to continue until we were up to FL340 and then finally we received a direct. I just assumed that it was due to a lot of traffic that I could not see on the TCAS.
Arkady - you bring up a very good point on this that I did not realize and that answers a lot of my questions. I did not realize that you would put both aircraft on a heading when resolving an in trail issue. Am I wrong in thinking that although it requires a vector given to two aircraft vice just one, that in the end it means an overall less maneuver as just one might need to make a significant course change to gain spacing while two aircraft making a small change can get the space they need more quickly?
I will certainly take you up on the offer to visit Swanwick! It would give me all the better understanding how it fits together going in and over London's airspace.
Del Prado - Indeed I welcome any heading that will shave off time on the arrival/departure! No complaints there!
Ah "That Green and Pleasant Land" - the moniker given to England by one of my English freinds who seems to have an inexhaustable supply of phrases for the land mass.
Arkady - you bring up a very good point on this that I did not realize and that answers a lot of my questions. I did not realize that you would put both aircraft on a heading when resolving an in trail issue. Am I wrong in thinking that although it requires a vector given to two aircraft vice just one, that in the end it means an overall less maneuver as just one might need to make a significant course change to gain spacing while two aircraft making a small change can get the space they need more quickly?
I will certainly take you up on the offer to visit Swanwick! It would give me all the better understanding how it fits together going in and over London's airspace.
Del Prado - Indeed I welcome any heading that will shave off time on the arrival/departure! No complaints there!
Ah "That Green and Pleasant Land" - the moniker given to England by one of my English freinds who seems to have an inexhaustable supply of phrases for the land mass.
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Am I wrong in thinking that although it requires a vector given to two aircraft vice just one, that in the end it means an overall less maneuver as just one might need to make a significant course change to gain spacing while two aircraft making a small change can get the space they need more quickly?
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Uncle Fred - because of the RMA and the fact you were departing 09R, there would have been more than
if the headings you were given were
The earliest you would have been transferred to London Control (134.125) would have been after the 245 heading, but more likely after the 265 headng instruction...
So either you didn't get all those headings, or more than a couple were on Directors frequency. Explanations of why (apart from the general ones above),cannot be gleaned unless facts are known!!
A visit to Swanwick would be great, for you and your colleagues - I'm sure your company has a telephone number for liaison. If you manage it, try to visit both AC and TC (both have their own sets of different problems and completely different ways of operating)- and sit in on Dir and TMA within TC as that is again, two different methods of operation.
Any visit you make would be great, as it gives a good chance for both pilots and controllers to learn from each other
...a couple on the Director's frequency
220, 225, 240, 245, 260, 275
So either you didn't get all those headings, or more than a couple were on Directors frequency. Explanations of why (apart from the general ones above),cannot be gleaned unless facts are known!!
A visit to Swanwick would be great, for you and your colleagues - I'm sure your company has a telephone number for liaison. If you manage it, try to visit both AC and TC (both have their own sets of different problems and completely different ways of operating)- and sit in on Dir and TMA within TC as that is again, two different methods of operation.
Any visit you make would be great, as it gives a good chance for both pilots and controllers to learn from each other
Thread Starter
Anotherthing: I fly to LHR a few times next month and I will try to keep closer book on exactly the number and specifics of the heading assignments so as to be more accurate in my inquiry (or do you say enquery?!). It is always a serious problem for me when I try to work and write from memory as I consider it to have been a good pattern if I remember where I parked my car in the employee's parking lot and then of course there is the matter of the keys... 
I will definately try to pop in and pay a visit as it will really be a time-well-spent learning experience. As an old salt I used to fly with in the military used to say over and over "just beacause you do not know why does not mean that there is not a good reason behind what is being done" I would love to see the bigger picture of what the controllers are dealing with and their airspace constraints.
In the meantime, I will have to see where that car was parked...
I will definately try to pop in and pay a visit as it will really be a time-well-spent learning experience. As an old salt I used to fly with in the military used to say over and over "just beacause you do not know why does not mean that there is not a good reason behind what is being done" I would love to see the bigger picture of what the controllers are dealing with and their airspace constraints.
In the meantime, I will have to see where that car was parked...
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Thanks, even though I'm not a pilot (ex ops monkey) I've learnt a bit here.
My interest in ATC goes back to the days of old when I got a visit to WD when the radar was at Sopley (?). Never did get the required "A" levels so unable to get a career in the trade. I also managed to get a visit a few years later and also one to Neatishead when the kit there was so primitive I was somewhat shocked as I knew what WD had then, just didnt seem right although since then massive improvements have come about in that branch of controlling having seen various displays at Waddington's airshow.
Pity that in this day and age I'm unlikely to be able to visit Swanwick to see the latest kit, people will called me strange when I say I could sit in a place like that for ages and not get bored.
Full credit to all you ATCO's
My interest in ATC goes back to the days of old when I got a visit to WD when the radar was at Sopley (?). Never did get the required "A" levels so unable to get a career in the trade. I also managed to get a visit a few years later and also one to Neatishead when the kit there was so primitive I was somewhat shocked as I knew what WD had then, just didnt seem right although since then massive improvements have come about in that branch of controlling having seen various displays at Waddington's airshow.
Pity that in this day and age I'm unlikely to be able to visit Swanwick to see the latest kit, people will called me strange when I say I could sit in a place like that for ages and not get bored.
Full credit to all you ATCO's
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Vectoring Technique Training
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']T[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']o ron83[/font]
In HK we have been using an Australian program called VV Approach to train our Controllers and have found it very good. It teaches the theory of vectoring plus a variety of exercises to hone beginner skills. Excellent way for a beginner ATC to start off. I hear it has just been released for purchase by private individuals. The website is www.visualvectoring.com. Might be just what you are looking for[/font]
In HK we have been using an Australian program called VV Approach to train our Controllers and have found it very good. It teaches the theory of vectoring plus a variety of exercises to hone beginner skills. Excellent way for a beginner ATC to start off. I hear it has just been released for purchase by private individuals. The website is www.visualvectoring.com. Might be just what you are looking for[/font]
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Uncle
As a "WestEnder" (Basically CPT - STU) I'll add that it is a very regular occurence to have you on a radar heading from first call on 134.75 until we release you own nav once at cruise around the STU area and hand you to Shannon.
The major east / west air route there is UL9 (there are a couple either side, UN14 for example) none of the routes are 12 miles apart therefore any opposite direction traffic MUST be on headings against each other, if you need to climb or descend thru.
From about 0700 to 2100 each day our mix of aircraft on that route can consist of any of the following:
Eastbound,
Overflights FL310+
EICK, EINN & EIDW outbounds climbing to FL330+
LTMA inbounds descending from FL330 to FL140
Westbound,
LTMA outbounds climbing FL130 to cruise
Westbound overflights
Dublin inbounds descending to FL240
Cork inbounds descending to FL300
Shannon inbounds descending to FL340
That's why we keep you on a heading!
We all strive that one heading will be enough all the way but as you know with wind direction and speed changing all the way up/down we sometimes have to keep "tweaking" you to mantain the track we desire!
Hope that helps.
As a "WestEnder" (Basically CPT - STU) I'll add that it is a very regular occurence to have you on a radar heading from first call on 134.75 until we release you own nav once at cruise around the STU area and hand you to Shannon.
The major east / west air route there is UL9 (there are a couple either side, UN14 for example) none of the routes are 12 miles apart therefore any opposite direction traffic MUST be on headings against each other, if you need to climb or descend thru.
From about 0700 to 2100 each day our mix of aircraft on that route can consist of any of the following:
Eastbound,
Overflights FL310+
EICK, EINN & EIDW outbounds climbing to FL330+
LTMA inbounds descending from FL330 to FL140
Westbound,
LTMA outbounds climbing FL130 to cruise
Westbound overflights
Dublin inbounds descending to FL240
Cork inbounds descending to FL300
Shannon inbounds descending to FL340
That's why we keep you on a heading!
We all strive that one heading will be enough all the way but as you know with wind direction and speed changing all the way up/down we sometimes have to keep "tweaking" you to mantain the track we desire!
Hope that helps.
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as an old grey beard i also find the enthuaism of numerous, numerous 5 degree heading changes on CPT departures tedious. That's London ATC and they know bettter and yawn......
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To Ron83....yes, at first glance one would think the price a little high. However after having seen it in use, I know I would have benefited from it as a beginner all those years ago. 'HEATHROW DIRECTOR' is very clearly an experienced, mature and confident controller. But even he will likely agree that it took some time to develop his 'techniques'. Radar skills, unfortunately, are mostly developed on your own after being qualified for some time. Traditional training is light on theory, mostly on telling a student what is good in various scenarios. I would recommend it to any young guy or gal to give it a go. It definately will prepare newbies for the real world and help them determine if they have the aptitude for the job. I have been around for quite a while and when observing approach controllers work, it is easy to tell who is 'skilled'. They make the job look easy but we know it is not. I think the pilot group recognize and appreciate the the service from the mature controllers. Really all I am saying is, I think it is a good program and worth a shot for the serious at heart. No, I do not have a vested interest in the product.
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I'm sure it's a good product,because I've seen samples,from which I learned couple of thingsbut still price is quite high,maybe because it has simulator built in it,not just theory,but as for me I'm doing OJT,so I have high fidelity sim at the Unit,where I can practice things,I can try it even in live traffic situation,but what I need is theory and rules of thumb,let's say like 50 deg right/left for straight in coming acft will double his time till FAP but 1250 $ for theory,well I need something more cost effective 
I think most Training schools luck on teaching vectoring techniques,they usually use swim or sink principle
but still price is quite high,maybe because it has simulator built in it,not just theory,but as for me I'm doing OJT,so I have high fidelity sim at the Unit,where I can practice things,I can try it even in live traffic situation,but what I need is theory and rules of thumb,let's say like 50 deg right/left for straight in coming acft will double his time till FAP but 1250 $ for theory,well I need something more cost effective I think most Training schools luck on teaching vectoring techniques,they usually use swim or sink principle
Thread Starter
Thank you for the very good info StillDarkandHungry. That does indeed help and I appreciate your answer.
I was all primed to take notes yesterday so I could refine my original question. Had the relief pilot ready to copy all the changes...So off we went from 27R at around 1640z on the CPT2F and what would you know? No more than one or two heading changes until we were finally cleared direct somewhere well west over Blighty. A few step-up altitude changes (8,9,100, etc) but other than that a major dissapointment Nary a radio call all the way out. Maybe it pays to be late out of the gate and miss the rush! I will give it another try next week.
btw, I have always wondered if I hold the record for the furthest "cleared direct?" During the first sandbox exercise in 1990/1991 I took off from Goose Bay and was cleared going through 7000' all the way to the Palmdale VOR which is east (over the mountains) of Los Angeles. In fact, did not make a turn until I entered downwind at Norton AFB. Anyone heard of a longer direct?
I was all primed to take notes yesterday so I could refine my original question. Had the relief pilot ready to copy all the changes...So off we went from 27R at around 1640z on the CPT2F and what would you know? No more than one or two heading changes until we were finally cleared direct somewhere well west over Blighty. A few step-up altitude changes (8,9,100, etc) but other than that a major dissapointment
Nary a radio call all the way out. Maybe it pays to be late out of the gate and miss the rush! I will give it another try next week.btw, I have always wondered if I hold the record for the furthest "cleared direct?" During the first sandbox exercise in 1990/1991 I took off from Goose Bay and was cleared going through 7000' all the way to the Palmdale VOR which is east (over the mountains) of Los Angeles. In fact, did not make a turn until I entered downwind at Norton AFB. Anyone heard of a longer direct?
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Uncle Fred,
Monday was extremely quiet - however there really is no excuse for lots of 5 degree heading changes. I'm afraid the incremental climbs, especially below FL130 are inevitable.
To add to StillDarkandHungry's post, the problems faced with your climb include (but are not exhaustive)
Traffic routeing via CPT area.
EGLL outbounds climbing initialy to 6000' - leave the sector in the climb to FL130.
EGGW traffic to call the sector FL70/80 (min stack) for further climb
EGHH/EGHI outbound traffic FL70 for further climb
EGHH/HI/LF (plus others), FL110 from the north to descend
EGHH/HI/LF (plus others) FL120 from the west to descend
EGLL/KK traffic from the west, FL140 to descend
EGKK traffic from the north FL150 to descend
EGKK traffic on a KENET departure to climb
EGTK joiners/leavers at CPT
Obviously, depending the actual mix and who calls first you may get lots of variant in you climb profile, and you will even get a lot of headings to vector you round traffic to give everyone the best climb/descent.
A lot of the traffic will be showing on radar but not yet talking to us, so often we stop at a safe level above/below, have a look, then 'go for it'.
Quite often traffic will come on parallel headigns (more the HH/HI/LF traffic from the north). In order to stream them for the airfield we will need to get level separation, so will drop the first one to say FL90, the second to FL100. That leaves intially FL80 (if no other traffic) for your CPT dep. Once past the first aircraft, you may get a climb to FL90 under the second. Once clear of that you will get a climb to the next safe level.
If it is busy, controllers will tend to get more procedural in their controllng, as this requires less radar monitoring of individual aircraft... hence why you may be subjected to more step climbs - it keeps you going, but is known to be safe without having to purely watch you ion radar when there are lot of other aircraft to monitor as well.
Also, the reason you often sit level at FL130 for 10 or 15 miles is the fact that the EGKK traffic inbound at FL150 from the north is unknown traffic to the next sector (134.75), therefore you cannot be transferred as they, by rights can climb you to FL150 on first contact (not a good idea if there is traffic in th eway, unfortunately, they have no details on that traffic!)
Bearcat
I personally don't often witness the 5 degree changes that you imply happen - I can imagine if it did happen it would be tedious. However as the controller with the whole picture, just maybe on the odd occasion they do
, especially compared to some aircrew who think they have the whole picture just because they have TCAS 
.
Maybe a visit to Swanwick is in order for you? That way both parties can learn from each other
Monday was extremely quiet - however there really is no excuse for lots of 5 degree heading changes. I'm afraid the incremental climbs, especially below FL130 are inevitable.
To add to StillDarkandHungry's post, the problems faced with your climb include (but are not exhaustive)
Traffic routeing via CPT area.
EGLL outbounds climbing initialy to 6000' - leave the sector in the climb to FL130.
EGGW traffic to call the sector FL70/80 (min stack) for further climb
EGHH/EGHI outbound traffic FL70 for further climb
EGHH/HI/LF (plus others), FL110 from the north to descend
EGHH/HI/LF (plus others) FL120 from the west to descend
EGLL/KK traffic from the west, FL140 to descend
EGKK traffic from the north FL150 to descend
EGKK traffic on a KENET departure to climb
EGTK joiners/leavers at CPT
Obviously, depending the actual mix and who calls first you may get lots of variant in you climb profile, and you will even get a lot of headings to vector you round traffic to give everyone the best climb/descent.
A lot of the traffic will be showing on radar but not yet talking to us, so often we stop at a safe level above/below, have a look, then 'go for it'.
Quite often traffic will come on parallel headigns (more the HH/HI/LF traffic from the north). In order to stream them for the airfield we will need to get level separation, so will drop the first one to say FL90, the second to FL100. That leaves intially FL80 (if no other traffic) for your CPT dep. Once past the first aircraft, you may get a climb to FL90 under the second. Once clear of that you will get a climb to the next safe level.
If it is busy, controllers will tend to get more procedural in their controllng, as this requires less radar monitoring of individual aircraft... hence why you may be subjected to more step climbs - it keeps you going, but is known to be safe without having to purely watch you ion radar when there are lot of other aircraft to monitor as well.
Also, the reason you often sit level at FL130 for 10 or 15 miles is the fact that the EGKK traffic inbound at FL150 from the north is unknown traffic to the next sector (134.75), therefore you cannot be transferred as they, by rights can climb you to FL150 on first contact (not a good idea if there is traffic in th eway, unfortunately, they have no details on that traffic!)
Bearcat
I personally don't often witness the 5 degree changes that you imply happen - I can imagine if it did happen it would be tedious. However as the controller with the whole picture, just maybe on the odd occasion they do
know bettter
. Maybe a visit to Swanwick is in order for you? That way both parties can learn from each other
Thread Starter
Great info anotherthing - very helpful in understanding what the bigger picture is - particulary with the altitude changes - some which come seemingly within mere seconds of each other (climb to 9 to 100 to 110 etc.). From your explanation though I can see at least a glimpse of the rhyme or reason behind what is being worked and frankly I had no idea who much was going on in this airspace.
On another note, thanks to the good work of your colleagues I was able to make it in when they re-opened 9R the morning of the snowstorm a couple of months past Thought for certain we were going to have to nip off to Manchester and the fun that would have entailed
, but we were eventually worked in without the hold at OCK. Now that was an interesting morning!
On another note, thanks to the good work of your colleagues I was able to make it in when they re-opened 9R the morning of the snowstorm a couple of months past Thought for certain we were going to have to nip off to Manchester and the fun that would have entailed
, but we were eventually worked in without the hold at OCK. Now that was an interesting morning!