ATC History
Join Date: Oct 2000
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xpz67.... Sadly, Jack Frith is no longer with us; he died earlier this year in France after a short illness.
<<Why were the early airways called Green one etc. I have the maps and evidence.>>
I don't know why they were given colours but that system was still in use until relatively recently; certainly during my time at Heathrow.
Certainly some bizarre things have happened in British ATC and I'm not as confident of it now as I used to be. When Heathrow is on easterly operations, departures via Compton have to work the South Director for climb through the inbounds. The Air Controller used to phone S. Dir for a heading immediately before take-off and a tactical heading, varying from 220-280 would be issued. Recently, a "standard" heading of 220 was introduced for all such deps with no reference to the radar controller. I'm sure there are good reasons for this but I WAS told that one reason was that the electronic flight progress strips in Heathrow Tower do not allow for such things!!! Wonder how this magic system would have coped when cross runways were in use and the Air Controllers would separate outbounds by using stepped climbs, etc? Hopefully someone from Heathrow will say I'm wrong..
<<Why were the early airways called Green one etc. I have the maps and evidence.>>
I don't know why they were given colours but that system was still in use until relatively recently; certainly during my time at Heathrow.
Certainly some bizarre things have happened in British ATC and I'm not as confident of it now as I used to be. When Heathrow is on easterly operations, departures via Compton have to work the South Director for climb through the inbounds. The Air Controller used to phone S. Dir for a heading immediately before take-off and a tactical heading, varying from 220-280 would be issued. Recently, a "standard" heading of 220 was introduced for all such deps with no reference to the radar controller. I'm sure there are good reasons for this but I WAS told that one reason was that the electronic flight progress strips in Heathrow Tower do not allow for such things!!! Wonder how this magic system would have coped when cross runways were in use and the Air Controllers would separate outbounds by using stepped climbs, etc? Hopefully someone from Heathrow will say I'm wrong..
No3 Cadet Course
Zooker,
Interesting that your list has, proportionally, so many ex No3 Cadets, Terry, Gill, John. East Midlands, particularly, did very well out of us and our determination not to be LATCC "fodder"
Heathrow Director,
Sorry to hear about Jack Frith, very likeable guy, and a great host (with Trudi) to the No3 Course reunion in France in 1993 (tempus fugit, not 'arf)
Interesting that your list has, proportionally, so many ex No3 Cadets, Terry, Gill, John. East Midlands, particularly, did very well out of us and our determination not to be LATCC "fodder"
Heathrow Director,
Sorry to hear about Jack Frith, very likeable guy, and a great host (with Trudi) to the No3 Course reunion in France in 1993 (tempus fugit, not 'arf)
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Are you the Charlton Athletic supporter?
Sorry I forgot the thread last time >
Sue Clifford was also on D watch LL at the time and I am sure Bren will be able to furnish her start date as it was a bit before me. She trained me along with others (long before the heady days of OJTI' s and associated dosh).
Judith (Judy) Chisholm was also about at the time . . before leaving to realise her dream of a career in flying (DeBeers) and her epic achievement(s) incl . . Fastest Solo Flight by a Woman both from England to Australia and Around the World in 1980?
As to the other ATCO's on D watch at the time . . .
Chris Prentice,
Chris Harris,
John Rymill
Paul Louden,
Mick Dryden (JJ retired),
Tony Painton (JJ retired)
John Cant (still flying I hope and enjoying the Guinness)
Colin McClelland (Ditto)
John Altersky (still owes me a fiver but lovely dogs to wake you up for second half)
John Kiernan (JK - Del Boy etc <No officers you cannot come into The Tower he is not ere>)
And many others . . but the brain storm cells are fading on this B**** diet.
Cheers to all
99
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ATC History
Hi all.
When it was decided to introduce "airways", 3 routes were first proposed.
Discussion groups and every manner of committee got a say on the subject. One route was agreed to by everyone and on the presentation map it was coloured green. The one which was OK'd by some and objected too by others was coloured yellow and the one that all objected too was coloured red.
After alterations were made to the route objected to by all taking it out to Ibsley it was approved but still retained the name Red one.
Additionally, it was thought that you couldn't have an airway called Yellow one it was changed to Amber.
That is shortened version of what happened but the paperwork relating to the subject makes interesting reading.
I have the presentation map.
Cheers.
JP.
When it was decided to introduce "airways", 3 routes were first proposed.
Discussion groups and every manner of committee got a say on the subject. One route was agreed to by everyone and on the presentation map it was coloured green. The one which was OK'd by some and objected too by others was coloured yellow and the one that all objected too was coloured red.
After alterations were made to the route objected to by all taking it out to Ibsley it was approved but still retained the name Red one.
Additionally, it was thought that you couldn't have an airway called Yellow one it was changed to Amber.
That is shortened version of what happened but the paperwork relating to the subject makes interesting reading.
I have the presentation map.
Cheers.
JP.
Bob and Sally Hillyer have just arrived to stay for the weekend - I think he and I are going to bore the the girls f***less with all our stories!
'Bunny' Gunston was at Brum' when he and I both trained there - what a scream. 2 or 3 LATCC Atcos ( Malcolm Austin being one name that springs to mind) had been on the same coastal crew as him and he was just as entertaining then!
BW
'Bunny' Gunston was at Brum' when he and I both trained there - what a scream. 2 or 3 LATCC Atcos ( Malcolm Austin being one name that springs to mind) had been on the same coastal crew as him and he was just as entertaining then!
BW
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Chevvron
. . . Agreed . . . The Eagles have done better . . Ho Hum
BW
I can't believe you just said that . . . remember "You do not have to say anything BUT it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence" . .
. . and please have a good weekend and maybe say high to Bob from moi.
99
Even Millwall finished higher than Palace this season
BW
Bob and Sally Hillyer have just arrived to stay for the weekend - I think he and I are going to bore the the girls f***less with all our stories!
I can't believe you just said that . . . remember "You do not have to say anything BUT it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence" . .
. . and please have a good weekend and maybe say high to Bob from moi.
99
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PAR
If it assists your history project, PAR was withdrawn at Manchester Airport in 1974 when Ground Movement Control was introduced. The airport used the Type 2000 PAR with its 2 screens - touchdown to 3 miles and touchdown to 10 miles final. I was a student in 1971 on one of the last PAR courses at Bournemouth run by the late Jack Manning.
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"I was a student in 1971 on one of the last PAR courses at Bournemouth run by the late Jack Manninig".
Ah, but peatair, can you remember where you were a decade later, on or about the morning of the 17th of February 1981?
Ah, but peatair, can you remember where you were a decade later, on or about the morning of the 17th of February 1981?
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ATC history
Good evening ladies and gentlemen. I use both terms in their loosest possible sense.
Here is another bit of completely useless information.
Why are westbounds evens and eastbounds the opposite.
Before WW2 the busiest airport in the US was Newark. They experienced all sorts of problems and to cut the story short to reduce the number of airmisses they decided that all aircraft on a westerly heading would fly odd thousands of feet and the reverse for eastbounds. I will ignore the requirement to fly east or west of the on-line beacon as that is a very long story
The choice of these altitudes did not work well as many flew at the wrong levels. It was then discovered that all the west bound streets in Newark occupied by pilots had even numbers and the eastbound the odds.
They then changed the system to accomodate that and the airmisses dropped to almost nothing.
Another silly bit of ATC history. Howver, it makes up what we have today.
May the fart be with you.
JP.
Here is another bit of completely useless information.
Why are westbounds evens and eastbounds the opposite.
Before WW2 the busiest airport in the US was Newark. They experienced all sorts of problems and to cut the story short to reduce the number of airmisses they decided that all aircraft on a westerly heading would fly odd thousands of feet and the reverse for eastbounds. I will ignore the requirement to fly east or west of the on-line beacon as that is a very long story
The choice of these altitudes did not work well as many flew at the wrong levels. It was then discovered that all the west bound streets in Newark occupied by pilots had even numbers and the eastbound the odds.
They then changed the system to accomodate that and the airmisses dropped to almost nothing.
Another silly bit of ATC history. Howver, it makes up what we have today.
May the fart be with you.
JP.
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Wasn't Crawford that way afflicted?
Which, of course, brings up a football story:
"Col" Harry Richardson Approach Sup when Ernie Abery comes to take over. Harry does the handover then, to make smalltalk, says to Ernie "I see QPR is going down". Ernie walks across to the Met TV and studies it intently.....
Which, of course, brings up a football story:
"Col" Harry Richardson Approach Sup when Ernie Abery comes to take over. Harry does the handover then, to make smalltalk, says to Ernie "I see QPR is going down". Ernie walks across to the Met TV and studies it intently.....
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Ernie was in my interview for the Civil Service Commission and it was obvious that he had clued himself up quite well about my previous ATC unit abroad. He was a good supervisor, although sitting typing all night wearing his pinstripe suit was a bit OTT!
@ Brian 48nav
Yes, Mick Dryden. He took me to Selhurst Park for a round of an Anglo-Italian Cup competition in 1971 when they drew 1-1 with Inter Milan & later to White Hart Lane where we ended up mixed with Spurs supporters :-)
DJM
Anybody know any Crystal Palace supporters wot' worked at LL?
DJM
You mixed with Spurs supporters and you're still alive?
Went to the Emirates about 2 years ago and the Spurs supporters arriving were corrallled in a ring of police vans!
Went to the Emirates about 2 years ago and the Spurs supporters arriving were corrallled in a ring of police vans!
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Why 40 minutes break
I don't know whether this is still contained in their recommendations, but IFATCA put forward the requirement for a break of 40 minutes between two radar sessions.
In the late sixties/early seventies when IFATCA took form, the Dutch were quite active in its Standing Committee VI, on human factors. The Dutch successfully proposed a canteen break of 40 minutes minimum, and a maximum radar session of 2 hours.
The 40 minutes pause was based on the time necessary to play a then popular card game (chasing of hearts - hartenjagen). Provided all four players knew well how to play, the game up and down to sixty points could be finished in roundabout 40 minutes.
Fortunately, it was also possible to give a mathematical reasoning to the case, which made it acceptable to management. Three times 40 minutes makes exactly two hours. Duty roster preparation was made easier with the 40 minutes rule as well.
I don't know whether this is still contained in their recommendations, but IFATCA put forward the requirement for a break of 40 minutes between two radar sessions.
In the late sixties/early seventies when IFATCA took form, the Dutch were quite active in its Standing Committee VI, on human factors. The Dutch successfully proposed a canteen break of 40 minutes minimum, and a maximum radar session of 2 hours.
The 40 minutes pause was based on the time necessary to play a then popular card game (chasing of hearts - hartenjagen). Provided all four players knew well how to play, the game up and down to sixty points could be finished in roundabout 40 minutes.
Fortunately, it was also possible to give a mathematical reasoning to the case, which made it acceptable to management. Three times 40 minutes makes exactly two hours. Duty roster preparation was made easier with the 40 minutes rule as well.
Two more ladies to waken the memory 'glands'!!
Lesley Austin and Maria Quinn.
I used to meet with them both on GATCO business, Lesley doing a stint as London Region President at one time. Maria was on about 21 or 22 course, Lesley a bit earlier, 'cos Haydn Roberts told me a tale about meeting her and he was on No 1 Course. There was another Lesley (Butler?) who was at Glasgow when I left (on about 24 Course). I believe she failed her aerodrome training there, became an instructor with Glasgow Flying Club, and was tragically killed in a Cherokee which dived into a loch just after takeoff from a private strip.
Lesley Austin and Maria Quinn.
I used to meet with them both on GATCO business, Lesley doing a stint as London Region President at one time. Maria was on about 21 or 22 course, Lesley a bit earlier, 'cos Haydn Roberts told me a tale about meeting her and he was on No 1 Course. There was another Lesley (Butler?) who was at Glasgow when I left (on about 24 Course). I believe she failed her aerodrome training there, became an instructor with Glasgow Flying Club, and was tragically killed in a Cherokee which dived into a loch just after takeoff from a private strip.