Initial R/T call to London control correct phraseology
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"Only the 1st call to any radar unit after T/O should include passing level/alt, unless requested by ATC."
It is not always the first radar frequency a passing level must only be given to. It must also be given to the first en-route ATS unit, ie London,Manchester or Scottish Control.
Format of Initial Calls
Pilots of aircraft flying Instrument Departures (including those outside controlled
airspace) shall include the following information on initial contact with the first enroute
ATS Unit (see also Chapter 6 Approach Phraseology Paragraph 1.1.2):
a) Callsign;
b) SID or Standard Departure Route Designator (where appropriate);
c) Current or passing level; PLUS
d) Initial climb level (i.e. the first level at which the aircraft will level off unless
otherwise cleared. For example, on a Standard Instrument Departure that involves
a stepped climb profile, the initial climb level will be the first level specified in the
profile).
It is not always the first radar frequency a passing level must only be given to. It must also be given to the first en-route ATS unit, ie London,Manchester or Scottish Control.
Format of Initial Calls
Pilots of aircraft flying Instrument Departures (including those outside controlled
airspace) shall include the following information on initial contact with the first enroute
ATS Unit (see also Chapter 6 Approach Phraseology Paragraph 1.1.2):
a) Callsign;
b) SID or Standard Departure Route Designator (where appropriate);
c) Current or passing level; PLUS
d) Initial climb level (i.e. the first level at which the aircraft will level off unless
otherwise cleared. For example, on a Standard Instrument Departure that involves
a stepped climb profile, the initial climb level will be the first level specified in the
profile).
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Reply to WX Man
Stansted CLB123, it is semantics but the c/s only means not all the other blurb as discussed
It happens not only on transfer to Final Director but on transfer to some towers where landing clearance(s) can be given late and are therefore critical to the the affected a/c
It happens not only on transfer to Final Director but on transfer to some towers where landing clearance(s) can be given late and are therefore critical to the the affected a/c
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Defruiter
In theory you are indeed correct, however the ATIS is often listened to before Top of Drop which is easily 20-30 mins before initial contact. Then you are relying on the pilot to write down what you need to hear, since an unfamiliar crew will forget what you want by the time they get handed over to Heathrow. Finally, some airlines get their crews to jot their ATIS down on a card that is roughly in the crews field of vision. However for some, it gets jotted down on the Flight Log (PLOG) and this may be clipped to a chart holder or attached to a clipboard which could be propped up anywhere within reach! It is normal instinct to glance at the ATIS letter on first contact with any approach unit but many of us won't go reading through the whole ATIS again. This is purely because we will have covered the runway and weather etc when we are briefing for the arrival. With the note about what you want on first contact being at the end of the transmission, then I would personally say that is perhaps not being placed in a obvious place for crew who are not that familiar with Heathrow.
When flying along a busy arrival route it could be said that crews will refer to a STAR chart more frequently than they need to consult any paperwork that will have the ATIS written down. Airlines tend to encourage that the admin should be wrapped up at FL100 in the descent so an efficient crew will aim to get most of the flight deck admin done by the time they contact Heathrow. That is of course in a ideal world and finishing your crew meal off in the descent will mean that you will be writing well into the descent!!!
However the STAR charts for any of the London airfields have enough extra text as it is so perhaps there might not be an ideal solution.
Will including it on the charts make a difference? Perhaps it could, I'm not so sure though. The things we need on first contact are already mentioned on the ATIS, which everyone inbound listens to. Surely, as long as the ATIS is listened to, everyone should know what we need on first contact.
When flying along a busy arrival route it could be said that crews will refer to a STAR chart more frequently than they need to consult any paperwork that will have the ATIS written down. Airlines tend to encourage that the admin should be wrapped up at FL100 in the descent so an efficient crew will aim to get most of the flight deck admin done by the time they contact Heathrow. That is of course in a ideal world and finishing your crew meal off in the descent will mean that you will be writing well into the descent!!!
However the STAR charts for any of the London airfields have enough extra text as it is so perhaps there might not be an ideal solution.
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Unless I have missed it in my (quick) scan, one to add outside the departure phase:
If you are in level flight but cleared to another level, you must report both the current and cleared level on first contact.
If you are in level flight but cleared to another level, you must report both the current and cleared level on first contact.
shall include the following information on initial contact with the first enroute
ATS Unit
ATS Unit
However there is no harm with differences to ICAO, providing they are obvious and documented for all pilots to see.
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I was not aware of the requirement to make a second passing level call. I always thought that the initial SSR check was enough. I don't remember ever being asked for a second passing level check, so one could presume that it is not necessary.
After giving a level check call to STN DIR, giving another to London on the next call is not required. If it was, we would be asked for it by London. I think Kilte has got this wrong. I can't find the requirement for a second call in CAP 413.
'The First Enroute ATS Unit' in this case must be STN DIR. It depends what you call 'enroute'. For the a/c, enroute is anwhere betwenn take off and landing.
After giving a level check call to STN DIR, giving another to London on the next call is not required. If it was, we would be asked for it by London. I think Kilte has got this wrong. I can't find the requirement for a second call in CAP 413.
'The First Enroute ATS Unit' in this case must be STN DIR. It depends what you call 'enroute'. For the a/c, enroute is anwhere betwenn take off and landing.
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Stansted Director is not an en-route ATS unit. An en-route controller is an area controller ie one who controls an area rather than a particular airport's movements, hence my previous ie of Manchester, Scottish or London when referring to the UK. The guys who are sat in Swanwick or Prestwick. This explanation may be factually untidy as I am not an ATCO but a pilot so feel free to correct my terminology.
To reiterate my point, the Scottish controllers require a mandatory passing level call on initial contact, in the spirit of my previous reference which was taken from the latest edition of...................
CAP413 !!!!
To reiterate my point, the Scottish controllers require a mandatory passing level call on initial contact, in the spirit of my previous reference which was taken from the latest edition of...................
CAP413 !!!!
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The thread seems to be diverging from the original question, which concerned an initial call to London Control (i.e the Area Control Centre, or enroute).
The answer to that question is indeed in the UK AIP, namely:
... and for traffic departing on SIDs, the initial call requirements are contained within the relevant aerodrome SID chart, e.g.
Discussions about the requirements on transfer to Approach units or Directors, etc, can be answered here, but are not what was originally being discussed.
The answer to that question is indeed in the UK AIP, namely:
GEN 1.1.1
The initial call changing radio frequency shall contain only the aircraft identification and flight level. Any subsequent report shall contain aircraft identification, position and time except as provided for in respect of helicopter operations in the areas specified in paragraph 1.1 (d) above.
Note: When changing frequency between any of the London Control, Scottish Control or Manchester Control Centres, pilots are required to state their callsign and Flight Level/Altitudes only (plus any other details when specifically instructed by ATC). When the aircraft is in level flight but cleared to another FL/ALT, both FL/ALT should be passed. Similarly, when the aircraft is not in level flight, the pilot should state the aircraft identification followed by the FL/ALT to which it is cleared only; it is not necessary to state passing FL/ALT in these circumstances.
The initial call changing radio frequency shall contain only the aircraft identification and flight level. Any subsequent report shall contain aircraft identification, position and time except as provided for in respect of helicopter operations in the areas specified in paragraph 1.1 (d) above.
Note: When changing frequency between any of the London Control, Scottish Control or Manchester Control Centres, pilots are required to state their callsign and Flight Level/Altitudes only (plus any other details when specifically instructed by ATC). When the aircraft is in level flight but cleared to another FL/ALT, both FL/ALT should be passed. Similarly, when the aircraft is not in level flight, the pilot should state the aircraft identification followed by the FL/ALT to which it is cleared only; it is not necessary to state passing FL/ALT in these circumstances.
AD 2-EGLL-6-1 London Heathrow Compton 3F SID Note 4
Callsign for RTF frequency used when instructed after take-off 'London Control'. Report callsign, SID designator, current altitude and cleared altitude on first contact with 'London Control'.
Callsign for RTF frequency used when instructed after take-off 'London Control'. Report callsign, SID designator, current altitude and cleared altitude on first contact with 'London Control'.
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Kiltie has implied that I answered Stinker99's original question below incorrectly. (I can't see any thread drift here.)
'On initial contact with London control in a climb/descent is the correct phraseology
C/S passing level cleared level
or
C/S cleared level only'
On the first call to London, after dep from STN, and having reported the passing level to STN DIR, there is no requirement to report the passing level again unless requested. That is correct, is it not?
''AD 2-EGLL-6-1 London Heathrow Compton 3F SID Note 4
Callsign for RTF frequency used when instructed after take-off 'London Control'. Report callsign, SID designator, current altitude and cleared altitude on first contact with 'London Control'. ''
PR's example above is at LL where London happens to be the 1st radar unit you call anyway, so this is not a very useful example.
'On initial contact with London control in a climb/descent is the correct phraseology
C/S passing level cleared level
or
C/S cleared level only'
On the first call to London, after dep from STN, and having reported the passing level to STN DIR, there is no requirement to report the passing level again unless requested. That is correct, is it not?
''AD 2-EGLL-6-1 London Heathrow Compton 3F SID Note 4
Callsign for RTF frequency used when instructed after take-off 'London Control'. Report callsign, SID designator, current altitude and cleared altitude on first contact with 'London Control'. ''
PR's example above is at LL where London happens to be the 1st radar unit you call anyway, so this is not a very useful example.
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When departing on a Stansted SID, or indeed any other airfield, do what the AIP chart says. If asked to contact Stansted Director, then give them the full call as per the plate.
If you've done that already, then on first contact with London Control thereafter, you only need pass callsign and Flight Level, as per the AIP.
If you've done that already, then on first contact with London Control thereafter, you only need pass callsign and Flight Level, as per the AIP.
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Originally Posted by Dumbledor
On the first call to London, after dep from STN, and having reported the passing level to STN DIR, there is no requirement to report the passing level again unless requested. That is correct, is it not?
The SS controller is sitting at the other side of the room from the London controller using the same equipment hence there is no requirement for the London controller to verify the Mode C again.
If in doubt though it does no harm to report your passing level.
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When changing frequency between any of the London Control, Scottish Control or Manchester Control Centres, pilots are required to state their callsign and Flight Level/Altitudes only (plus any other details when specifically instructed by ATC). When the aircraft is in level flight but cleared to another FL/ALT, both FL/ALT should be passed. Similarly, when the aircraft is not in level flight, the pilot should state the aircraft identification followed by the FL/ALT to which it is cleared only; it is not necessary to state passing FL/ALT in these circumstances.
We're not talking about changing frequencies from one area controller to another. CAP413 should be followed unless there is an explicit local instruction on an AIP chart not to.
On initial contact with an EN-ROUTE ATS UNIT, passing level should be given. I have already quoted the CAP413 reference for this in a previous post. Perhaps you consider Stansted Director to be an en-route ATS unit, which I find bizarre but stand to be corrected. Maybe someone qualified could come up with a precise definition of an en-route ATS unit. IMHO it's only those who control our FIRs, ie London, Scottish and Manchester.
We're not talking about changing frequencies from one area controller to another. CAP413 should be followed unless there is an explicit local instruction on an AIP chart not to.
On initial contact with an EN-ROUTE ATS UNIT, passing level should be given. I have already quoted the CAP413 reference for this in a previous post. Perhaps you consider Stansted Director to be an en-route ATS unit, which I find bizarre but stand to be corrected. Maybe someone qualified could come up with a precise definition of an en-route ATS unit. IMHO it's only those who control our FIRs, ie London, Scottish and Manchester.
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Kiltie
I wouldn't call considering Stansted Director to be en route "bizarre", my dictionary defines en route as "on or along the way". In my view it is more bizarre the Scottish Control do not seem to believe that Aberdeen can verify a mode C.
I'm sure Scottish would argue that they don't know whether any given aircraft has talked to Aberdeen Radar and so they can't know if verification has occured. As a pilot I would argue that I shouldn't have to know this level of detail and should just be able to make the correct first call to the first radar unit after take off and should thereafter consider myself validated and verified.
G W-H
I wouldn't call considering Stansted Director to be en route "bizarre", my dictionary defines en route as "on or along the way". In my view it is more bizarre the Scottish Control do not seem to believe that Aberdeen can verify a mode C.
I'm sure Scottish would argue that they don't know whether any given aircraft has talked to Aberdeen Radar and so they can't know if verification has occured. As a pilot I would argue that I shouldn't have to know this level of detail and should just be able to make the correct first call to the first radar unit after take off and should thereafter consider myself validated and verified.
G W-H
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We're not talking about changing frequencies from one area controller to another. CAP413 should be followed unless there is an explicit local instruction on an AIP chart not to.
The initial call changing radio frequency shall contain only the aircraft identification and flight level.
Another anomaly for our CAA to tackle
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The SS controller is sitting at the other side of the room from the London controller using the same equipment hence there is no requirement for the London controller to verify the Mode C again.
As such there is no need to report passing level again. The controller retains the option of asking you to report passing level at any time - this may be due to garbling etc.
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Anotherthing has summed it up. Only in the first call to a radar unit is the passing level/alt req'd. (unless requested etc)
I don't remember ever being asked for a passing level check by Manchester after handover from Durham App radar, or by London 134.125 from LF app, or by London from Exeter App. The list goes on. If they had asked for one they would have got one. In practice there seems to be no requirement for it.
There is no mention of 'En-Route ATS Unit' in the glossary of the latest CAP413, so we have to assume that this means any ATS unit used by the A/C while en-route.
If the first radar unit is area control ie London, Scottish or Manchester then they should receive the SSR check but not if it has already been given to the dep airport app radar.
Some pilots give passing level on handover from one area control to another. This wastes airtime and must complicate the call for the ATCO. There are too many things that have to be said on the R/T in the UK as it is.
I don't remember ever being asked for a passing level check by Manchester after handover from Durham App radar, or by London 134.125 from LF app, or by London from Exeter App. The list goes on. If they had asked for one they would have got one. In practice there seems to be no requirement for it.
There is no mention of 'En-Route ATS Unit' in the glossary of the latest CAP413, so we have to assume that this means any ATS unit used by the A/C while en-route.
If the first radar unit is area control ie London, Scottish or Manchester then they should receive the SSR check but not if it has already been given to the dep airport app radar.
Some pilots give passing level on handover from one area control to another. This wastes airtime and must complicate the call for the ATCO. There are too many things that have to be said on the R/T in the UK as it is.
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The AIP does not agree with the CAP413, but the AIP is the legally binding document is it not ?
Another anomaly for our CAA to tackle
Another anomaly for our CAA to tackle
Don't think that is mentioned in the AIP or CAP413.
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Only Pprune Radar seems to recognise my point that there is clear guidance in CAP413 that states passing levels are required to the first en-route ATS unit. I am in agreement that this is yet another publication goof by the CAA when he rightly states a contradiction lies in the AIP. Every new edition of CAP413 is disappointingly crap, containing the same old inaccuracies that it would appear nobody in Gatwick can be a*sed to tidy up. What little faith I had in the document, after this debate, has now vanished.
There are still a few unanswered questions I have, namely:
Why do ScATCC inisist on the CAP413 passing level requirement, rather than the AIP version? Have they published a "local" difference we should be aware of? Any Scottish Centre controllers care to contribute?
Why has nobody in the know taken this opportunity to define what an "en-route ATS unit" is?
There are still a few unanswered questions I have, namely:
Why do ScATCC inisist on the CAP413 passing level requirement, rather than the AIP version? Have they published a "local" difference we should be aware of? Any Scottish Centre controllers care to contribute?
Why has nobody in the know taken this opportunity to define what an "en-route ATS unit" is?
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'Only Pprune Radar seems to recognise my point that there is clear guidance in CAP413 that states passing levels are required to the first en-route ATS unit.'
I also agree that CAP413 does state this. The problem is that there is no definition of an 'en-route ATS Unit'. If you look in the CAP413 Supplement (just google it) on the Climb-Cruise-Descent section under 'initial calls' there is a sub heading after the take-off phraseology 'Initial Call to Radar' followed by the usual call, including passing level etc. It doesn't specify which 'radar'.
The answer is in the detail of the wording in CAP413 'the first en-route ATS unit' .The 'en-route' term is not in capitals so this is an adjective. So this means 'the first ATS unit which is en-route'.
Kiltie, you have raised a very good point and I agree with what you say about 413.
By the way I don't recall giving 2 passing level calls in the climb in Scotland. Who are you giving the 1st one to? I wonder why this not enough for Scottish Control if this is the second radar unit that you are in contact with.
I also agree that CAP413 does state this. The problem is that there is no definition of an 'en-route ATS Unit'. If you look in the CAP413 Supplement (just google it) on the Climb-Cruise-Descent section under 'initial calls' there is a sub heading after the take-off phraseology 'Initial Call to Radar' followed by the usual call, including passing level etc. It doesn't specify which 'radar'.
The answer is in the detail of the wording in CAP413 'the first en-route ATS unit' .The 'en-route' term is not in capitals so this is an adjective. So this means 'the first ATS unit which is en-route'.
Kiltie, you have raised a very good point and I agree with what you say about 413.
By the way I don't recall giving 2 passing level calls in the climb in Scotland. Who are you giving the 1st one to? I wonder why this not enough for Scottish Control if this is the second radar unit that you are in contact with.