So- who looks down on who?
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Pugwash
Don't be put off by some of the negativity that's doing the rounds in NATS at the moment, they offer excellent training and far better salaries than the majority of regional airports who employ their own atcos, but like a lot of the outside world, things are changing within the organisation.
I won't go into that 'cos you can read all about it elsewhere in this forum, but in your position I'd still go for NATS training if you can.
It's bloody hard work and only a few get selected each year, fewer come out of the college fully qualified, you don't get a choice as to where you want to go and the validation process isn't exactly a stroll in the park - but then again it's not meant to be, only the best are required.
I now work at a regional airport where I am employed by the airport owners, I thoroughly enjoy the variation in the work, it's well paid, good roster and I work with some great people.
There are training opportunities outwith NATS, but they're difficult to come by and if you want to move on + upward within ATC and perhaps management, NATS is definately the option to choose as the pay generally matches the responsibility - unlike in non NATS organisations.
You face a couple of years of very hard work, after which you'll be in a job you'll probably never want to leave.
Don't be put off by some of the negativity that's doing the rounds in NATS at the moment, they offer excellent training and far better salaries than the majority of regional airports who employ their own atcos, but like a lot of the outside world, things are changing within the organisation.
I won't go into that 'cos you can read all about it elsewhere in this forum, but in your position I'd still go for NATS training if you can.
It's bloody hard work and only a few get selected each year, fewer come out of the college fully qualified, you don't get a choice as to where you want to go and the validation process isn't exactly a stroll in the park - but then again it's not meant to be, only the best are required.
I now work at a regional airport where I am employed by the airport owners, I thoroughly enjoy the variation in the work, it's well paid, good roster and I work with some great people.
There are training opportunities outwith NATS, but they're difficult to come by and if you want to move on + upward within ATC and perhaps management, NATS is definately the option to choose as the pay generally matches the responsibility - unlike in non NATS organisations.
You face a couple of years of very hard work, after which you'll be in a job you'll probably never want to leave.
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pugwash,
I'm sure some doubt comes into everyone's mind at some point, especially when the pass rate is mentioned - even if you get to college, will you make it back out still as a NATS employee?!
Visits are relatively easy to organise as long as you're willing to be flexible and travel a bit. I'd suggest a visit to both an aerodrome site and either Prestwick/Swanwick (and there are of course other non-NATS aerodrome locations too...). If you make it through the selection process, you'll be asked whether you would *prefer* Aero or Area (no guarantees!) - so it's best to see what they both do.
Either ask around on here (or in the interview thread) or contact HR who can put you in touch with the right people.
I'm sure some doubt comes into everyone's mind at some point, especially when the pass rate is mentioned - even if you get to college, will you make it back out still as a NATS employee?!
Visits are relatively easy to organise as long as you're willing to be flexible and travel a bit. I'd suggest a visit to both an aerodrome site and either Prestwick/Swanwick (and there are of course other non-NATS aerodrome locations too...). If you make it through the selection process, you'll be asked whether you would *prefer* Aero or Area (no guarantees!) - so it's best to see what they both do.
Either ask around on here (or in the interview thread) or contact HR who can put you in touch with the right people.
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For what its worth, I love this job (ATCO) and all the ratings I use. I can't think of anything I would rather do. ..Well maybe a high class naughty film director. (Did I say that out loud?).
There is a lot of training involved, and annual checks for the rest of your career. But its a job that most enjoy getting up in the morning or evening (depending on shifts) for.
Money is ok. But although necessary, its not what motivates me.
There is a lot of training involved, and annual checks for the rest of your career. But its a job that most enjoy getting up in the morning or evening (depending on shifts) for.
Money is ok. But although necessary, its not what motivates me.
Ohcirrej
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Originally Posted by pugwash4x4
oddly enough i can't help but think that a lot of you a whining bastewards!
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Originally Posted by pugwash4x4
oddly enough i can't help but think that a lot of you a whining bastewards! (and yeah i really know how to make friends and influence people lol)
pensions look acceptable, pay is moderate to very good (depending on who you beleive), time off looks good.
I've just sold my own businesses and have worked on average 80hrs/week for 7 years (peaking at 104hrs/week for 9 months and dropiing as low as 65hrs/week at one point).
Had no pension or guarantee or wage increase and when the businesses sold it took much longer and i got much less than i would have 12months ago- because of the credit crunch.
From where i'm sitting working as an ATCO seems fairly cushty!
p.s. getting a job at the moment is like pulling teeth, so if you have a secure job you are phenomonally lucky!
pensions look acceptable, pay is moderate to very good (depending on who you beleive), time off looks good.
I've just sold my own businesses and have worked on average 80hrs/week for 7 years (peaking at 104hrs/week for 9 months and dropiing as low as 65hrs/week at one point).
Had no pension or guarantee or wage increase and when the businesses sold it took much longer and i got much less than i would have 12months ago- because of the credit crunch.
From where i'm sitting working as an ATCO seems fairly cushty!
p.s. getting a job at the moment is like pulling teeth, so if you have a secure job you are phenomonally lucky!
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As when times are good no one in the private enterprise environment gives a flying f**k about those in the public domain. i.e. Nurses, military, etc but only when times turn south do those in private enterprise gripe about the perceived advantage of having a steady (low paid job).
When times are tight the private sector whinges because it faces ALL the risks of a downturn, having already paid for ALL The benefits during the upturn. The gubbment often forgets that it doesn't earn its own money!
It would seem that like in other service sectors NATS is already being affected by the management culture of the civil service and NHS- ie stick managers in who know nothing, get the job because they have a degree (and i have a very good degree in Accounting and Finance before anyone starts to accuse me of bias), but provide useless management services because they have no experience or real world knowledge. So yes i DO get entirely frustrated with the public sector, and not unreasonably- we do NOT need to give the gubment 46.9% of GDP in order to run the country with hundreds of thousands of managers and "management consultants".
Wow rant over
There is one HUGE proviso to that rant- my experience of working in the public sector (having been a officer in the Light Infrantry, and a unpaid consultant in the NHS), is that frontline operational staff often provide brilliant services, but are in almost all cases effectively and completely demorilised by middle management and targets. The Ethos in many gubbment departments is one of rewarding (or at least showing complete indifference to) failure and incompetence, and thus penalising excellence and demorilising all the excellent staff!
What worries me now is that public sector management are attempting to run the services like the private sector- a total impossibility and one destined to failue in my eyes. You need competition to run an organisation effectively for profit (you also need the possibility of abject failure and bankruptcy on one hand, and cash in your pocket on total success!) and the public sector can never have external competition.
Trust me i'm about as far from public sector management as you can get-and Cushty is often used in my circles- mainly because of a mate who is a Saaaaaaaarth Londoner and uses it ALL the time in conversation.
Undoubtedly i will now have upset a darn sight more people- BUT please remember that i am going through the application process of becoming an ATCO, because the people and work look extremely interesting and stimulating. My comments above will, i hope (and in my experience), be echoed by some of you guys already. The private sectors gripe is never with front line staff, but with civil servants and middle managers. If you are frontline staff then i applaud you, if you are management ............well i think you can work out what i think.
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I'll let you in on a few little hints Pugwash.
Air Traffic Control is the best damn job in the world.......if you can do it. Folk around the world have worked their asses off to attain a licence, and whatever their motivating factor, when even the slightest facet of what we do is called into question, well, it's game on. It's the sundry bullsh*t that we're exposed to that tarnishes the job and causes the negativity (internal politics, lack of communication between the Subject Matter Experts and upper echelons, screwing with pension conditions are just a start)
Many of us on here have seen and helped newbies who would give their left testicle/breast/body part just to get through the selection process. The preparation some of them go through for the selection process is admirable (and sometimes a little frightening........). On the other hand, reading a post from a "maybe applicant" that at face value appears to be hunting for a pecking order in the job, well, that's one of those sundry facets mentioned above that certainly pisses me off. Sure, there's a rivalry in ATC (to be expected with a group of Alpha personalities), but there's too much "us and them" in ATC at the moment and it certainly doesn't need propagating.
This will sound harsh, but I double dog dare you to print your first post and take it with you should you get to interview stage and show it to the interview. Compare it to some of the posts in this thread (link)........
Air Traffic Control is the best damn job in the world.......if you can do it. Folk around the world have worked their asses off to attain a licence, and whatever their motivating factor, when even the slightest facet of what we do is called into question, well, it's game on. It's the sundry bullsh*t that we're exposed to that tarnishes the job and causes the negativity (internal politics, lack of communication between the Subject Matter Experts and upper echelons, screwing with pension conditions are just a start)
Many of us on here have seen and helped newbies who would give their left testicle/breast/body part just to get through the selection process. The preparation some of them go through for the selection process is admirable (and sometimes a little frightening........). On the other hand, reading a post from a "maybe applicant" that at face value appears to be hunting for a pecking order in the job, well, that's one of those sundry facets mentioned above that certainly pisses me off. Sure, there's a rivalry in ATC (to be expected with a group of Alpha personalities), but there's too much "us and them" in ATC at the moment and it certainly doesn't need propagating.
This will sound harsh, but I double dog dare you to print your first post and take it with you should you get to interview stage and show it to the interview. Compare it to some of the posts in this thread (link)........
Last edited by Jerricho; 31st Mar 2009 at 14:34. Reason: I can't spell for ****
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Cushty is not a word that is often heard outside of aviation so I would suspect that Quincy M E is correct
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Pugwash,
First, get yourself selected.
Then pass the course.
Then get an aerodrome licence. Then validate it.
Then get an approach licence. Then valiate it.
Then get an area licence. Then validate it.
Then get an oceanic licence. Then validate it.
Then nobody will look down on you, and some of us might welcome you as an equal.
Then you can work anywhere in the world and probably earn an awful lot more than you can in the UK.
On the beach
First, get yourself selected.
Then pass the course.
Then get an aerodrome licence. Then validate it.
Then get an approach licence. Then valiate it.
Then get an area licence. Then validate it.
Then get an oceanic licence. Then validate it.
Then nobody will look down on you, and some of us might welcome you as an equal.
Then you can work anywhere in the world and probably earn an awful lot more than you can in the UK.
On the beach
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Just my observations, usually someone aspiring to become an ATCO asks more about the job itself than the bull**** you are fishing for.
Am saving my "proper" interest questions until (IF) i pass stage 1- it sounds like a bit of a trial (although not that i expect any of the following 4 years to be any easier of course), so with the best will in the world, there's no point getting too excited until i know i "might" have some chance of actually getting anywhere. After today i'm really not sure about that!
At least on the internet if i post stuff that no one likes, people can ignore me- better than wasting an ATCOs time in the real world i reckon!
This thread was only supposed to be lighthearted- nothing horrifically serious- i think 3 days of cramming and testing have led to a lack of accurate articulation of my feelings- and certainly not enough use of smilies!
For once, a serious question:
Then get an aerodrome licence. Then validate it.
Then get an approach licence. Then valiate it.
Then get an area licence. Then validate it.
Then get an oceanic licence. Then validate it.
Then get an approach licence. Then valiate it.
Then get an area licence. Then validate it.
Then get an oceanic licence. Then validate it.
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pugwash
As you've never actually worked in NATS it may be an idea to talk less and listen more. You are creating crass characterisations and '"front line" versus everyone else' divisions before you've even met one person in the company, in order to try to appease those you've already upset! Incredible. A little more maturity might work.
As you've never actually worked in NATS it may be an idea to talk less and listen more. You are creating crass characterisations and '"front line" versus everyone else' divisions before you've even met one person in the company, in order to try to appease those you've already upset! Incredible. A little more maturity might work.
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Pugwash,
It is possible, but you may have to broaden your horizons to more enlightened countries than the UK. The UK is very narrow in its training of ATCOs. After college you are "streamed", which is possibly where your initial impression of "who looks down on whom" originates from. Whereas, elsewhere you get trained in all disciplines, then decide which discipline you are more suited to and end up a far more rounded ATCO. My opinion, of course.
Is it of any benefit?
Well that's up to you to decide. For me, it's allowed me to work at 13 different airports, on 4 continents for 35 years and retire at 55.
On the beach
For once, a serious question:
Quote:
Then get an aerodrome licence. Then validate it.
Then get an approach licence. Then valiate it.
Then get an area licence. Then validate it.
Then get an oceanic licence. Then validate it.
is this possible to get fully validated in all areas? is it of any benefit? i was under the impression that if you were aerodrome validated you could possibly vaildate to Approach, but NOT area?
Quote:
Then get an aerodrome licence. Then validate it.
Then get an approach licence. Then valiate it.
Then get an area licence. Then validate it.
Then get an oceanic licence. Then validate it.
is this possible to get fully validated in all areas? is it of any benefit? i was under the impression that if you were aerodrome validated you could possibly vaildate to Approach, but NOT area?
Is it of any benefit?
Well that's up to you to decide. For me, it's allowed me to work at 13 different airports, on 4 continents for 35 years and retire at 55.
On the beach
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Am saving my "proper" interest questions until (IF) i pass stage 1
did you get a Christmas turkey last year?
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PugWash, heres a thought/s. Apply to NATS like most future ATCO's (cos they pay for your training!!) and you never know you might even pass. If you do and you like it - bonus. If you dont like it, keep your JCB and pay for yourself to get whatever licence/course you need to dig holes??!! You never know you might like that instead??
Or educate yourself at the other ATC training establishments outside NATS, fund it yourself (rather expensive though - doh) and hopefully you will still get a licence at the end. At this point you still dont have a job unless you have struck a deal with a non NATS unit before hand. When/If you get a job I hope the job is for you because at this point the large wedge of cash you've just blown could have been used for your JCB thingy-mi-bobby to dig holes!!
P.S Good luck
Or educate yourself at the other ATC training establishments outside NATS, fund it yourself (rather expensive though - doh) and hopefully you will still get a licence at the end. At this point you still dont have a job unless you have struck a deal with a non NATS unit before hand. When/If you get a job I hope the job is for you because at this point the large wedge of cash you've just blown could have been used for your JCB thingy-mi-bobby to dig holes!!
P.S Good luck
