NATS ageism ruling

[abracadabra28]

So they take the age limit off. Big deal. Age is always going to be a factor, it'll just mean NATS and other employers will have to be more stealthy with their reasons for not employing said people.

[45 before POL]

35 as a cut off is a bit low, but as said nats look to recoup some of the training costs. The current training figure of an atco in area radar has been put at a figure close to half a million, On the basis that most atco's retire at 55, this would leave the company costings of in excess of 25 thousand a year and approx 17 productive years. Its cheaper to train a pilot, and most of them are self funded! On the flipside there are plenty of people capable of making it that are over 35 and it should be raised. Age 42 is supposedly the peak. 50+ with no atc experience would be rare to validate and costings just wouldn't add up. Who defended this case, a trainee lawyer on day release?. Thats up to nats now to work around and provide a strong case.....who knows what next 50 year old wanting to join the RAF( they have age limits)

[eglnyt]

Who defended this case, a trainee lawyer on day release?.

You're still missing the point. Anybody would have failed to defend the 35 limit. As soon as you set it at 35 you're saying that at 35 + one day you suddenly become incapable of making the grade. That is obviously wrong so your age limit can't be defended. Wherever you set the point you'll have the same problem.

[abracadabra28]

Exactly. They, and other businesses like them, will just have to abolish the age capping and adopt a more subtle way of getting rid of people who are not financially viable (too old!).

[windowjob]

At 50+ (well nearer 60) I am retiring after 38 years at the job, I ain't going to miss night duties, getting up at sparrow fart for real early shifts, I am going to miss a lot of good people and good times.
Would I like to be starting in the job at my age? - No way!
At my age, experience and some good training early on with the likes of Heathrow Director have enabled me to keep valid to the end - the new 50+ bloke will have neither.

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

It's mobile grade policy and it's application,

Allegedly, someone from the college recently refused to go to a particular unit and got alternative arrangements.
Someone else failing to validate at a particular unit, got a transfer and a relocation allowance.
No idea of how reliable those rumours are. But it wouldn't surprise me as like in all respectable farms, all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others !!

[Avoiding_Action]

Allegedly, someone from the college recently refused to go to a particular unit and got alternative arrangement

I have also heard a rumour that someone recently finished at the college and then quit when they were refused the unit of their choice.

I wonder how long the politically correct EU courts take until they deal with the 25 year old age limit enforced by Eurocontrol.

[HigherSights]

Age does have quite a few effects on performance (talking generally, there are always exceptions), e.g.

• long term memory recall for events;
• working memory performance when information load is high;
• accuracy of geometric and numerical reasoning;
• speed of numerical checking;
• knowledge and skill learning;
• attention capacity - divided attention and attention switching;
• speed of physical actions;
• skill learning;
• vigilance;
• visuo-spatial abilities;
• sleep loss;
• deterioration various aspects of visual function;
• deterioration in hearing; and
• acute health problems and incapacitation.

Some of these though can be improved with practice. While people may have a preference for certain tasks, and be naturally better at them, learning and practice can lead to improvement even in basic abilities. Also, skills relevant to controlling are found to different degrees in different people - so some (e.g. introverts [a generalisation]) might be better at vigilance tasks while others (e.g. extroverts) are better at handling emergencies for instance.

The following show little or no effect of aging:

• long-term memory for meaning;
• recognition (as opposed to recall); and
• automatic processes.

As you can see this does back up NATS general argument on safety grounds. The trouble with this is that there may be some exceptions to the general findings on age-related performance. It's those exceptions that cause the equity problems. To me, some age cut off is a common-sense measure that applies to only a minority of safety-critical jobs, and society needs to decide whether the compromise is acceptable for those roles, e.g. ATCOs, pilots, security screeners. Older controllers on the job currently have, as has been pointed out, the benefit of experience and so are working more at the levels of skills and rules rather than first principles.

The only way to go from here is to review aptitude tests to ensure that they are sensitive enough for factors that vary with age and are critical to ATC.

(As you can probably tell I'm a psychologist/ergonomist not a controller... hello by the way!)

[anotherthing]

(As you can probably tell I'm a psychologist/ergonomist ... hello by the way!)

Burn them all...

only joking, hello

[HigherSights]

I already am! (I live in a hot country...)

[divingduck]

old controllers

"How many experienced Controllers have validated at a new unit, who are over 40 years old?
In the last few years at Swanwick (TC and AC) I believe very few have validated. In TC, I believe the answer is 0."

To whoever wrote that....me in Muscat at 37, UAE control (Abu Dhabi) at 44 and Shannon at 47.
There are a raft of guys that check out well into their 40's and 50's...it is just plain ignorant to think otherwise.

[throw a dyce]

The vast majority of controllers recruited for Hong Kong in the late 1990s were over 40,and all checked out.I was 37 at the time,and validated in the Tower at an airport the size of Gatwick,and thereafter Heathrow in about 5 weeks,after the course.
When returning to my old unit(Aberdeen) after 3 years it took a lot longer to validate at the unit,where I had most experience.
The reason was that the P.C. police had installed a new training regime,which was totally geared to cadets.There was no way that you could start at the 180 hours level.You had to go through all the hoops,which was a complete waste of time and rather insulting.
Still validated in the quickest time for the new nanny scheme,at the age of 41.
I have heard that certain NATS units used to take a dim view if you are over 40.Might still be the case.

[Still Wee Jock]

I was 50 last year and started drawing my pension (thank you NATS, I love not having to work anymore, 30 years was quite enough). Ask me if I'd want to train as a controller at the age of 50.......hahahahahahahahahaha. Ha. Ha. Hahaha.

No.

[Gonzo]

Bear in mind that the topic here is ab initio training, not already experienced ATCOs moving to another unit.

[divingduck]

gonzo

I do grant that that was the initial object of the thread, but it the question was asked, and then answered regarding anyone over 40 checking out anywhere....

[Sand Devil]

First validation?

Jeez guys. I'm really glad I managed to obtain my first validation in Tower and Approach (Procedural) while I was still 49. Lord only knows what kind of mush my brain might have been if I'd waited another year!

[heathrow, easy life]

Re validation
A controller validated at our unit aged 56 in 2008, was previously valid at the unit but had been doing approach at TC for the last15 years. He openly admits though it was not easy but experience helped.

[deighton2002]

Although some of the arguments against the ruling are reasonable and well thought out, there also seems to be an element of 'old people can't do the job' pervading many replies. Now if in the tribunal this came across to the guys making the decision, then they could only really rule against NATS. Presumably NATS would have had a barrister to represent them who would have known this, but I wonder if any management personnel appeared as witnesses anf put their foot in it?

[eglnyt]

I wonder if any management personnel appeared as witnesses anf put their foot in it?

If you read the judgement it looks as though the Tribunal already had enough evidence that NATS felt that 'old people can't do the job' from internal e-mails, minutes and reports before they ever cross examined anybody from NATS.

[inv flyer]

hi i was talking to a relation that works for NATS HR and they are saying the guy in this case is to have his hearing in 3 weeks for how much compensation he is due. she also said that they have offered him a job and a six figure sum to settle before the hearing.

seems a bit unfair that he can just walk in without the entrance tests and get a lump sum as well.