Deconfliction Service
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Hi Dumbledore
The UK law is relatively specific, and applies to all aircraft flying within UK territorial airspace (as well as other examples for UK registered aircraft/pilots overseas) and the relevant portions are shown below:
So the fact that you don't have the relevant charts to allow you to complete a flight safely could mean you (or the foreign IFR pilot) is breaking the law. The fact that Farnborough gives you a 'clearance' which stops you busting Controlled Airspace is neither here nor there. As a pilot you should have the appropriate data in front of you, and know the boundaries and airspace rules. ATC will of course help out and hold your hand, but it's not their responsibility to do everything for pilots. Sometimes you need to take the responsibility for being a Captain and make sure you and your crew are fully briefed 
Sadly, as with most things in the world, the dumbing down of professionals, coupled with a blame everyone else culture, is well and truly established in the world 
God help us !!
The UK law is relatively specific, and applies to all aircraft flying within UK territorial airspace (as well as other examples for UK registered aircraft/pilots overseas) and the relevant portions are shown below:
Extra-territorial effect of the Order(a)
149 (1) Except where the context otherwise requires, the provisions of this Order:
(b) in so far as they apply as aforesaid to other aircraft shall apply to such other aircraft when they are within the United Kingdom or on or in the neighbourhood of an offshore installation;
(e) in so far as they prohibit, require or regulate as aforesaid the doing of anything in relation to any aircraft on or in the neighbourhood of an offshore installation, shall apply to every person irrespective of his nationality or, in the case of a body corporate, of the law under which it was incorporated and wherever that person or body may be.
149 (1) Except where the context otherwise requires, the provisions of this Order:
(b) in so far as they apply as aforesaid to other aircraft shall apply to such other aircraft when they are within the United Kingdom or on or in the neighbourhood of an offshore installation;
(e) in so far as they prohibit, require or regulate as aforesaid the doing of anything in relation to any aircraft on or in the neighbourhood of an offshore installation, shall apply to every person irrespective of his nationality or, in the case of a body corporate, of the law under which it was incorporated and wherever that person or body may be.
Articles 16(9) and 19(2)
Aircraft Equipment
1 Every aircraft of a description specified in the first column of the Table in paragraph 5 of this Schedule and which is registered in the United Kingdom shall be provided, when flying in the circumstances specified in the second column of the said Table, with adequate equipment, and for the purpose of this paragraph the expression “adequate equipment” shall mean, subject to paragraph 2, the scales of equipment respectively indicated in the third column of that Table.
Aircraft Equipment
1 Every aircraft of a description specified in the first column of the Table in paragraph 5 of this Schedule and which is registered in the United Kingdom shall be provided, when flying in the circumstances specified in the second column of the said Table, with adequate equipment, and for the purpose of this paragraph the expression “adequate equipment” shall mean, subject to paragraph 2, the scales of equipment respectively indicated in the third column of that Table.
(2) Aeroplanes
(a) flying for purposes other than public transport; A(1) and (2) and
B(1), (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6)
(b) flying for the purpose of public transport; A, B(1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6) and (7), D and F(1)
(a) flying for purposes other than public transport; A(1) and (2) and
B(1), (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6)
(b) flying for the purpose of public transport; A, B(1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6) and (7), D and F(1)
6 The scales of equipment indicated in the foregoing Table shall be as follows:
Scale A
(2) Maps, charts, codes and other documents and navigational equipment necessary, in addition to any other equipment required under this Order, for the intended flight of the aircraft including any diversion which may reasonably be expected.
Scale A
(2) Maps, charts, codes and other documents and navigational equipment necessary, in addition to any other equipment required under this Order, for the intended flight of the aircraft including any diversion which may reasonably be expected.
Sadly, as with most things in the world, the dumbing down of professionals, coupled with a blame everyone else culture, is well and truly established in the world God help us !!
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If you're truly concerned about ATSOCAS, then fly to and from aerodromes in CAS and continue the journey by car.
The thing that worries me is the fact that people already have developed their own 'interpretations' of the services.
And therefore the attempted standardisation has already failed. I shall be paying a great deal of attention to Appendix 1 of 744. I shall surmise it now.
Cover your arse.
That is all.
The thing that worries me is the fact that people already have developed their own 'interpretations' of the services.
And therefore the attempted standardisation has already failed. I shall be paying a great deal of attention to Appendix 1 of 744. I shall surmise it now.
Cover your arse.
That is all.
The UK law is relatively specific, and applies to all aircraft flying within UK territorial airspace (as well as other examples for UK registered aircraft/pilots overseas) and the relevant portions are shown below:
1 Every aircraft of a description specified in the first column of the Table in paragraph 5 of this Schedule and which is registered in the United Kingdom shall be provided
But that applies to aircraft registered in the UK, and not to other aircraft.
Art 19 and Schedule 4 apply in detail to UK registered aircraft -- other aircraft must only be equipped to comply with the law of the country in which they are registered. By contrast Art 20 and Schedule 5 (radio equipment) apply in detail to all aircraft in the UK.
Nevertheless, there is an expectation that foreign aircraft will comply with the standards set out in Annex 6. These require "current and suitable charts for the route of the proposed flight and all routes along which it is reasonable to expect the flight to be diverted". So it has the same effect.
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We might have found a something lacking here with Jeppesen charts. You should be able to identify the base of the TMA and boundaries of CA for example on the FAB departure plate, without refering to a VFR chart, but they are not mentioned. That would give you all the info req'd. I don't know aerad that well, maybe they are better.
The a/c flying in and out of FAB are mostly IFR and join CA shortly after dep. The boundaries of CA should be made clear in the IFR dep plates. Then if the pilots are to to 'remain clear etc' they know what to do.
I still think the command to 'remain clear' is unnecessary in this case if the maintaining the cleared altitude will keep you below the TMA. Clearance to enter CA in the climb should come in the next call to London anyway.
You will not find a complete set of VFR charts on the average bizjet for the whole of europe. A European Jeppesen Airway manual is probably the most common and sufficient for the job.
Perhaps I'm too practical. I wouldn't have made a good lawyer!
D
The a/c flying in and out of FAB are mostly IFR and join CA shortly after dep. The boundaries of CA should be made clear in the IFR dep plates. Then if the pilots are to to 'remain clear etc' they know what to do.
I still think the command to 'remain clear' is unnecessary in this case if the maintaining the cleared altitude will keep you below the TMA. Clearance to enter CA in the climb should come in the next call to London anyway.
You will not find a complete set of VFR charts on the average bizjet for the whole of europe. A European Jeppesen Airway manual is probably the most common and sufficient for the job.
Perhaps I'm too practical. I wouldn't have made a good lawyer!
D
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Say again...
"...On the odd occasions when I have heard a controller ask a foreign pilot what type of radar service he required the lengthy silence, followed by "roger" or "say again" suggests that few are familiar with the procedures.""
That was me. US aviator here, spending most of my time flying in the States, but every now and then end up here in UK at various airports, always IFR. Learning there are different types of radar services and would like (need) to know more... At my last 'international procedures' class I asked the instructor - he had no clue.
Can someone give a brief explanation of the three types of services available and/or point me to the appropriate source. I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the binders of Jepps we have, but getting it straight from a UK forum might be more user friendly.
Thanks for any help.
That was me. US aviator here, spending most of my time flying in the States, but every now and then end up here in UK at various airports, always IFR. Learning there are different types of radar services and would like (need) to know more... At my last 'international procedures' class I asked the instructor - he had no clue.
Can someone give a brief explanation of the three types of services available and/or point me to the appropriate source. I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the binders of Jepps we have, but getting it straight from a UK forum might be more user friendly.
Thanks for any help.
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Have a look at this: Air Space Safety: ATSOCAS 917
Adriatic blue D11
No doubt an air traffic controller will come along, but start at the beginning.
ATSOCAS stands for air traffic services OUTSIDE controlled airspace, so is not relevant to the main airways or airports with control zones
Various levels of service are available provided the controler feels he can offer the service, varying from a basic service, traffic service, deconfliction service, to a procedural service.
Hope this helps
No doubt an air traffic controller will come along, but start at the beginning.
ATSOCAS stands for air traffic services OUTSIDE controlled airspace, so is not relevant to the main airways or airports with control zones
Various levels of service are available provided the controler feels he can offer the service, varying from a basic service, traffic service, deconfliction service, to a procedural service.
Hope this helps
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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No doubt an air traffic controller will come along, but start at the beginning. ATSOCAS stands for air traffic services OUTSIDE controlled airspace, so is not relevant to the main airways or airports with control zones
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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Who mentioned ATC in any of the recent posts ? It's ATSOCAS we are talking about and US based operators do receive it on many occasions, including the radar based services available.
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With the link that rich_g85 posted, found this: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_...L08October.pdf
So, if I understand it;
When we're descending out of the FL's, and the controller mentions the DS term, we must be entering uncontrol airspace, correct?
And if asked what service we'd like, we should always just reply with DS, as opposed to Basic, Traffic, or Procedural... as we're always IFR, and it provides the 'ultimate' collision avoidance service provided.
Now if I can just get the Scottish accent down...
Thanks a lot for the help.
So, if I understand it;
When we're descending out of the FL's, and the controller mentions the DS term, we must be entering uncontrol airspace, correct?
And if asked what service we'd like, we should always just reply with DS, as opposed to Basic, Traffic, or Procedural... as we're always IFR, and it provides the 'ultimate' collision avoidance service provided.
Now if I can just get the Scottish accent down...
Thanks a lot for the help.
Guys, ease up on the nit picking.Adriatic blue asked a question, and I respoinded by explaining the basic principle that ATSOCAS refers to outside controlled airspace and then the services available. I know many overseas visitors fly into non control zone airfileds or ga fields, but I was just trying to give a fairly basic answer to help him, not start a slanging match.
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Adriatic, you will leave Class C Controlled Airspace by descent (outside the main Controlled Airspace route structures) passing FL245 if the Military are playing in the airspace, or FL195 otherwise. You might also pop in and out of pieces of Controlled Airspace which you cut across, depending on the route you are flying. It's up to ATC to tell you that you are leaving and request what service you require. Deconfliction Service is probably the most appropriate if you are in IMC. Just be aware that you might be vectored around to avoid other traffic as the controller has to endeavour to provide a minimum distance from other unknown traffic he can see.
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AdriaticBlueDII, deconfliction service is the best you can get outside CAS, however, it is also the decision of the controller whether to provide it or not, or instead to provide a lower service including basic. It is rare for anything more than a basic service to be provided on my radar sectors (the southern part of the UK's airspace) and yes, we do often work passenger flights and big jets outside - that makes no difference to the decision.
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5milesbaby:
The clear implication from that is that you rarely give anything better than a BS to commercial passenger flights outside CAS. I'm sure that's not what you meant. If you have a policy of "nothing more than a BS outside CAS" then I'm quite sure the second sentence of that policy is "transfer said traffic to XXX Radar, who are the designated LARS provider for the area".
NS
It is rare for anything more than a basic service to be provided on my radar sectors (the southern part of the UK's airspace) and yes, we do often work passenger flights and big jets outside - that makes no difference to the decision.
NS
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It sounds like exactly what was meant, and yes I too give BS to commercial traffic. A service from a LARS unit would be nice, but what if the LARS unit aren't interested, despite being the designated LARS provider, and what if no clearance can be given at the time, a commonly used 'remain outside, call London for join' resulting in calling London outside CAS and receiving, you guessed it, basic service...