UK ATC - Foreign Pilots and ATSOCAS

[radarman]

A question for units that operate in Class G, and have frequent foreign pilots.

One of the underlying themes of the new ATSOCAS is that it relies hugely on both ATC and pilots knowing exactly what they are asking for, and what they are giving. Hence the massive education programme. If you operate in Class G, what is your unit's guidance on how to apply the new ATSOCAS to a foreign pilot? He won't know what service to ask for, and if you unilaterally impose a service on him, he has no way of knowing his obligations and responsibilities. So how can you reach an "accord" with someone who doesn't understand the process?

[Standard Noise]

Now that's a good question, how dare you ask such a good question. Why not direct it to the lawyers that drew up the new procedures?

I would have thought that the best idea would be to give a foreign pilot the best service you can, traffic permitting, depending on whether they ask for a radar (RIS/RAS) or non radar service (FIS), ie if they ask for a RIS, then explain that it's no longer available and offer them a Traffic Service.

Mind you, since the new procedures seem to put less onus on us and more on the pilots, why worry?

[fulham fan]

Hi radarman

there's a mailshot going to known non-uk users of ATSOCAS plus to all European NAAs with the training CD which should help

[Red Four]

Under the old system, many foreign pilots did not seem to understand the intricacies of RIS or RAS, beyond the word 'radar', certainly hardly ever asked for them.

I think if they do not ask for the new service by name, ask whether they want radar or not, and then take it from there.

[Dannyboyblue]

Cant wait to hear the first French pilot with basic english request a deconfliction service, i can just about say it myself!

[anotherthing]

Red Four,

once you have asked them whether they want radar or not, what then? A protracted conversation aobut deconfliction or information???

This new system is no clearer than the old one for pilots who either simply do not understand the differences in services, or just cannot be bothered to read up on it.

The old system was fine, all it needed was re-education. The same pilots who are lazy and who just jump into their aircraft won't change overnight because we've changed the names of the srvices!!

Silenthandover

as someone who is goinmg to provide the service, does it not worry you slightly that the MATS pt 2 is stating you must give a RAS/deconfliction service if the pilot does not know what to ask for? Surely such a pilot will not understand his or her obligations under that service, thereby possibly putting the ATCO at a disadvantage?

I'm glad I no longer give ATSOCAS - you guys have got your work cut out!

[MaxReheat]

Used to regularly fly with 'foreign' crew and they had no idea about the UK's ATC services. The only one that came close to comprehension was 'Radar Control'. As for such gems as 'Radar Advisory outside controlled airspace' you may as well speak in Klingon and you may as well continue to do so after March - cosmetic bolleaux, IMHO.

[airac]

Try the link http://www.mrklingon.org/
examples not on the DVD

what service would you like ?

In Klingon

nuq toy'taHghach SoH rur


avoiding action


[avoiding] vangta'ghach

I suppose it's a little like welsh if the word doesn't exist use english with a klingon action . Failing that hit them with a photon torpedo, sod the peace treaty

[radar707]

"When it is obvious from the pilot's response that there is no understanding of ATSOCAS, unless it is inappropriate (workload, traffic, position etc), a RAS is to be provided (with relevant limitations if necessary)."

Interesting that one,let's hope you don't have any sort of incident at are questioned at the subsequent board of enquiry about why you were providing a service that no longer exists!!

Whilst I agree that it would be logical to provide a service that the pilots understand (if they do understand that is). I spoke with my LCE about this during our ATSOCAs training and he was of the opinion that you can't provide a RIS or RAS no matter what as of 12th March.

[Spitoon]

Now that's a good question, how dare you ask such a good question. Why not direct it to the lawyers that drew up the new procedures?

For once, I want to come to the defence of the lawyers. I don't think even lawyers would have come up with this stuff.

[ATCO Fred]

To quote the present Farnborough MATS 2

"When it is obvious from the pilot's response that there is no understanding of ATSOCAS, unless it is inappropriate (workload, traffic, position etc), a RAS is to be provided (with relevant limitations if necessary)."

I assume the same will apply substituting Deconfliction for RAS after March 12th.

SH

It sure does worry me but I am not sure where we go if pilots do not understand the service, which a large proportion do not appear to. The amount of times that I have asked "What type of service do you require?" and got the answer "vectors for the ILS" is huge even in my time and I am still a trainee.

And to be honest chaps thus was the case under the old ATSOCA and will remain pertinent after 12th March. The very ethos of ATC service provision is the formulation of the contract between controller and pilot. How the hell can a controller FULLY discharge his obligations when the other party is totally unaware what their obligations are under the service they are being provided.

It worried me back in LATCC Mil days when working traffic of the east coast and it does now as a civil controller providing services in class G. FWIW, I believe we (controllers) have for far too long been the crux for those aviators who have no understanding/appreciation of the airspace classification through which they fly AND those airlines that do not provide sufficient training for their crews to equip them to SAFELY discharge their duty of care to their passengers.

BUT in the interest of safety and those blissfully unaware down back we do (and will always) expose ourselves to risk of being unwilling involved in incidents/potential accidents due to the factors above when really just once I'd like to offer a FIS and leave them to fight it out alone. Sometimes tough love is the only answer

[Spitoon]

The very ethos of ATC service provision is the formulation of the contract between controller and pilot.

Now here is a rather British thing. Because the UK does this ATSOCAS stuff, we have had to invent odd concepts like the contract.

For the benefit of any jolly foreigners who are not familiar with it, it goes something like this - the pilot asks for one of the range of services available, and the controller agrees to provide it. Or the controller negotiates some other service which the pilot can agree to accept. When both parties have agreed on a particular service a contract exists and that service is provided by ATC until some other form of service is agreed. Of course, with a contract, both parties usually have to contribute and it is thus with the ATSOCAS contract - the pilot has to do his or her bit too. And this seems to be the subject of many of these posts - the pilot often appears not to know what he or she is expected to do. I guess it's a bit like the rules of cricket.

Elsewhere things tend to be much simpler in the main. It goes more like if you're inside CAS you get ATC, if you're outside CAS you don't. I guess there's still a contract of sorts but it seems that most people are clearer about their responsibilities.

But after March 12, everything will get easier in the UK. From then all the services that the pilot can get outside CAS will be called FIS...even the one that is really ATC!

[radarman]

Thanks for your entertaining answers to my original post. Nice to see cynicism is still alive and kicking! But - what service do we give the foreign chappie who doesn't understand ATSOCAS? Surely a contract is void if one party or the other doesn't understand the terms of the service, so there's no point in trying to give one. Is it acceptable to tell the bloke to nob off? (Using standard R/T of course).

[chevvron]

I get the feeling I retired at the right time!!

[SilentHandover]

Chevv

To quote a FISO I spoke to last week "good for you". Nice to see you back online.