Sydney Arrivals
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Virginia, USA
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Sydney Arrivals
I would appreciate any advice from an air traffic controller's experience with the Rivet Arrival at Sydney. Seems some crews are having difficulty meeting the Tammi at or below 9,000 restriction, after being vectored off the Rivet and a speed restriction or two, then told to "resume" the Rivet Arrival. Sometimes leaves us high and too fast to make the Tammi restriction. By the time we determine we can't make Tammi, it's too late to advise ATC. Any advice or experiences would be helpful. Many thanks. I have also posted a similar thread in the "technical area.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: On a different Island
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It's been a while... but I'm sure it hasn't changed...
The speed options via RIVET would normally be 250K or greater; so plan on that, but keep in mind the slower speed (250K) is always a card that could be played.
There are two options for the controllers to get you out of the patterns (mostly not used, but used often enough) via RIVET:
1) giving you a set course time from the hold (TARAL/CULIN/MAKKA) to RIVET or just give a time to cross RIVET if not holding,
2) vectoring you and / or slowing you down and sometime speeding you up depending o what your econ speed is.
By the look of your post I would guess you are talking mostly about option 2. When I was working there I would encourage people to pick a slower speed than they thought they needed then bring you up, rather than doing it the other way around (better for height management); the trade off for that is we could actually cost you a little time and some cranky pilots wouldn't bring the speed back up ie 'you stupid controller you should have picked a better speed'.
I'm a little surprised that you resume before RIVET but can't make the TAMMI requirement, or don't realise you won't make it. I'd guess you'd have at least 40NM to run after being told to resume (ie 20NM before RIVET). Is it because you're not looking for it until after RIVET; is it a design issue with the plate?
Also it's never too late to let us know your not going to make the height requirement, it gives us a chance to point you elsewhere as "the reason for that TAMMI requirement" might just be on your nose or closing on you still. The SY APP controller will not co-ordinate with the Departures controller for arrivals via RVIET/TAMMI, if you bust that requirement you are in DEP airspace and only vigilant controllers may notice before it's too late; the APP guys are worrying more about the CCT and spacing rather than the heights.
So where does that leave us?
Ask if you can have extra miles or higher speed if slowed too much to get back to the profile of A090 x TAMMI (profile, sic); ie go faster for longer = same result.
If getting a clean run, ie not told to hold or slowed early, start down a little early (two mins or so) to give a little vert advantage in your pocket; or set your box to be A090 by 25NM SY and then bring it back up to 20NM (TAMMI) once you hit RIVET, it would be very rare to be slowed after RIVET (excluding the CCT phase) and if you were you could just tell the APP controller directly that you can't meet TAMMI height with a speed reduction then it's very simple for them to give you the options, ie cancel it or work out another plan.
Other than that I'm drawing blanks... But from my ATC view point is the earlier I know the more I can do to help and get you out of the paperwork that follows a bust of the height requirement, there's paperwork for us too; and normally we get in more sh!t than you blokes, such is the nature of that ANSP.
The speed options via RIVET would normally be 250K or greater; so plan on that, but keep in mind the slower speed (250K) is always a card that could be played.
There are two options for the controllers to get you out of the patterns (mostly not used, but used often enough) via RIVET:
1) giving you a set course time from the hold (TARAL/CULIN/MAKKA) to RIVET or just give a time to cross RIVET if not holding,
2) vectoring you and / or slowing you down and sometime speeding you up depending o what your econ speed is.
By the look of your post I would guess you are talking mostly about option 2. When I was working there I would encourage people to pick a slower speed than they thought they needed then bring you up, rather than doing it the other way around (better for height management); the trade off for that is we could actually cost you a little time and some cranky pilots wouldn't bring the speed back up ie 'you stupid controller you should have picked a better speed'.
I'm a little surprised that you resume before RIVET but can't make the TAMMI requirement, or don't realise you won't make it. I'd guess you'd have at least 40NM to run after being told to resume (ie 20NM before RIVET). Is it because you're not looking for it until after RIVET; is it a design issue with the plate?
Also it's never too late to let us know your not going to make the height requirement, it gives us a chance to point you elsewhere as "the reason for that TAMMI requirement" might just be on your nose or closing on you still. The SY APP controller will not co-ordinate with the Departures controller for arrivals via RVIET/TAMMI, if you bust that requirement you are in DEP airspace and only vigilant controllers may notice before it's too late; the APP guys are worrying more about the CCT and spacing rather than the heights.
So where does that leave us?
Ask if you can have extra miles or higher speed if slowed too much to get back to the profile of A090 x TAMMI (profile, sic); ie go faster for longer = same result.
If getting a clean run, ie not told to hold or slowed early, start down a little early (two mins or so) to give a little vert advantage in your pocket; or set your box to be A090 by 25NM SY and then bring it back up to 20NM (TAMMI) once you hit RIVET, it would be very rare to be slowed after RIVET (excluding the CCT phase) and if you were you could just tell the APP controller directly that you can't meet TAMMI height with a speed reduction then it's very simple for them to give you the options, ie cancel it or work out another plan.
Other than that I'm drawing blanks... But from my ATC view point is the earlier I know the more I can do to help and get you out of the paperwork that follows a bust of the height requirement, there's paperwork for us too; and normally we get in more sh!t than you blokes, such is the nature of that ANSP.
We seem to get a few request for the height requirement to be cancelled at TAMMI every day. A lot of the times this can be approved as there is not as much traffic crossing above you there as say BERROW. Most of the aircraft who get the cancellation still seem to make the requirement????? If you think your only just going to miss it maybe ask the app controller if you could increase speed or delay reducing to 250kts until 9000' as this seems to help most of the time. In rare cases we would give you extra track miles.
Also another bit of advice on behalf of all the APP controllers at Syd DO NOT LEVEL OFF AT 9000!!!!!! I know it is part of your company's plan to reduce fuel burn but a lot of the time we are relying on you to keep descending so that we have seperation assurance with traffic from the north or overflying from the east. It still amazes us the number of mainly Qantas 737's that enter downwind at Syd at 8000' after leveling off at 9000' for a while and then crack it when we give them 20 miles to run! several end up going around but they still don't seem to realise why. When it's busy 20 is about all we can give otherwise we end up getting behind and have to jam up several following arrivals just to get back on time. So help us and yourself out and enter downwind at 6000' and ready to get down.
Also another bit of advice on behalf of all the APP controllers at Syd DO NOT LEVEL OFF AT 9000!!!!!! I know it is part of your company's plan to reduce fuel burn but a lot of the time we are relying on you to keep descending so that we have seperation assurance with traffic from the north or overflying from the east. It still amazes us the number of mainly Qantas 737's that enter downwind at Syd at 8000' after leveling off at 9000' for a while and then crack it when we give them 20 miles to run! several end up going around but they still don't seem to realise why. When it's busy 20 is about all we can give otherwise we end up getting behind and have to jam up several following arrivals just to get back on time. So help us and yourself out and enter downwind at 6000' and ready to get down.
