UK Military ATC to Civil Licence Conversion (Split)
niknak
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UK Military ATC to Civil Licence Conversion (Split)
It isn't going to happen overnight.
Ineviatebly it will bring some compatibility into the system, but it'll be a number of years before ex Mil Atcos can just "convert" their licences into civil ones.
Significant differences still remain between they way the two sides operate at airfields and SRG will insist on courses and exams being undertaken until they're sure there's no margin for confusion.
Ineviatebly it will bring some compatibility into the system, but it'll be a number of years before ex Mil Atcos can just "convert" their licences into civil ones.
Significant differences still remain between they way the two sides operate at airfields and SRG will insist on courses and exams being undertaken until they're sure there's no margin for confusion.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Even if it was true, how would it
?
Are they leaving just to get a civil licence? Or is it because civvy ATCOs get paid more (unless I've missed the boat and the RAF guys and gals are on upwards of 60K a year these days)? If it's for the latter reason, then the outflow won't necessarily be stemmed.
stem the outflow of RAF ATCOs leaving the service
Are they leaving just to get a civil licence? Or is it because civvy ATCOs get paid more (unless I've missed the boat and the RAF guys and gals are on upwards of 60K a year these days)? If it's for the latter reason, then the outflow won't necessarily be stemmed.
Having sat alongside civil airfield controllers in a combined radar room, while there are a number of differences, I'm not convinced that from an airfield perspective there's so much re-training to do that it could not be handled as OJT. That said, I think there is a significant amount of work to be done by SRG in terms of scoping the training and licensing requirement.
Area radar is a completely different kettle of fish and there are significant differences in the way in which business is conducted.
Area radar is a completely different kettle of fish and there are significant differences in the way in which business is conducted.
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TBH Chaps,
As someone who has done both controlling disciplines....there is no way a current mil atco could just walk out of the mob and straight into a civil job without undertaking the normal licence courses...this is especially true for ADI (Tower). So many differences in the rules, phraseology, operating procedures..etc etc, the list goes on! Even radar is different...remember, a civil controller at a typical regional airport, doesn't have the luxury of a Zone/Deps, Dir, App and talkdown controller! They are all that and more sometimes! I found that the most difficult part to comprehend to begin with when undertaking the radar course and that was even after a year as an ADI controller in the civil environment!
This has been talked about so many times and will no doubt continue to rage on....I believe at the moment anyone who has done JATCC recently (cant remember from what date in the last year) will now be exempt from the CAA Basic course and move straight onto the rating courses. In my humble opinion, thats the way it should stay.....
If Mil people moan that they don't have the same licence, then get out pay the money and pursue a civil rating. Simple
As someone who has done both controlling disciplines....there is no way a current mil atco could just walk out of the mob and straight into a civil job without undertaking the normal licence courses...this is especially true for ADI (Tower). So many differences in the rules, phraseology, operating procedures..etc etc, the list goes on! Even radar is different...remember, a civil controller at a typical regional airport, doesn't have the luxury of a Zone/Deps, Dir, App and talkdown controller! They are all that and more sometimes! I found that the most difficult part to comprehend to begin with when undertaking the radar course and that was even after a year as an ADI controller in the civil environment!
This has been talked about so many times and will no doubt continue to rage on....I believe at the moment anyone who has done JATCC recently (cant remember from what date in the last year) will now be exempt from the CAA Basic course and move straight onto the rating courses. In my humble opinion, thats the way it should stay.....
If Mil people moan that they don't have the same licence, then get out pay the money and pursue a civil rating. Simple
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Dunjumpin
Didn't I see this on another web page about 10 days ago???
Give a mil ATCO an ICAO licence aNd he/she will only go one way.............OUT.
MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND,....................................................... .........
Didn't I see this on another web page about 10 days ago???
Give a mil ATCO an ICAO licence aNd he/she will only go one way.............OUT.
MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND, MORE MONEY, LESS SAND,....................................................... .........
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Mil to Civil
Surely the simple solution to enabling RAF ATCOs to re-train as civil ATCOs is the same one that’s been kicked around for many years without ever being officially adopted.
First the RAF decide what is a reasonable return of service is, lets say 8 to 10 years on completion of the JATCC. Then over the course of say the last year of this qualifying service those individuals that wish to are considered eligible to undertake a 1 year correspondence course for an Aerodrome Licence, with a number of ‘residency’ periods of set examinations and simulator exercises at either of the CAA qualified training schools.
This course could and should be funded by the RAF as part of re-settlement training, but since funding has always been a sticking point in the past, perhaps it’s time that other sources were examined and identified. For some years RAF pilots have had a system in place to help them re-train for an ATPL, but nothing official has been set in place to enable RAF ATCOs to make a similar transfer.
I believe this system would act as a pull factor to attract individuals to become an RAF ATCO, whilst ensuring they delivered a fair return of service before taking the skills they have acquired across to the civil sector. As the ‘baby-boomer’ generation of civil ATCOs retiring increases perhaps it’s time that all RAF ATCOs were treated as a national resource and trained to civil standards, as they do in New Zealand and many other countries.
Heimdall
First the RAF decide what is a reasonable return of service is, lets say 8 to 10 years on completion of the JATCC. Then over the course of say the last year of this qualifying service those individuals that wish to are considered eligible to undertake a 1 year correspondence course for an Aerodrome Licence, with a number of ‘residency’ periods of set examinations and simulator exercises at either of the CAA qualified training schools.
This course could and should be funded by the RAF as part of re-settlement training, but since funding has always been a sticking point in the past, perhaps it’s time that other sources were examined and identified. For some years RAF pilots have had a system in place to help them re-train for an ATPL, but nothing official has been set in place to enable RAF ATCOs to make a similar transfer.
I believe this system would act as a pull factor to attract individuals to become an RAF ATCO, whilst ensuring they delivered a fair return of service before taking the skills they have acquired across to the civil sector. As the ‘baby-boomer’ generation of civil ATCOs retiring increases perhaps it’s time that all RAF ATCOs were treated as a national resource and trained to civil standards, as they do in New Zealand and many other countries.
Heimdall
Last edited by Heimdall; 16th Oct 2008 at 12:58. Reason: Grammer!!
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No reason why it can't be. Look at the ATPL modular stuff. X months of sitting at home with the laptop, 4 weeks of brush up. If the pilots can do it, no reason why ATC can't.
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You can't get the sim time except for on a modular course for a starter. And a hundred other reasons why. Done civil and mil controlling; the differences are not fully apparant until you've done both.
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You can't on the atpl either. You do the study, pass the theoretical exams, then go and do the flying. If you look at ESSAR 5, you will find that the majority of differences are related to the theory stuff. No one is arguing about bypassing the practical sim stuff (which, after all, is probably the most important bit), the discussion is about how to convert. There is no practical reason why someone couldn't set up the equivalent of Bristol GS with students then buying their sim time (complete with practical examination) somewhere else. It just hasn't been done, probably because no one sees the business imperative.
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It has been done, back in the day when all you had to do was pitch up and pass the three exams (written, practical and oral) per rating. Warren Brown had a highly successful weekend sim/study set up at the back of Bournemouth airport. Get some time in with him and it was quite possible to book an exam day at Hurn and pass a rating. A bit too successful, unfortunately. Possibly due to his high success rate compared to NATS college, he was effectively shut down once the new RGAT courses were brought in. At least that's how I remember it all....
The present integrated course setup doesn't allow for budding entrepreneurs unless they can get accreditation from SRG. Same as everything else in aviation... expensive.
The present integrated course setup doesn't allow for budding entrepreneurs unless they can get accreditation from SRG. Same as everything else in aviation... expensive.
Last edited by bottom rung; 16th Oct 2008 at 18:31. Reason: minor factual correction
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Lurking123
It makes no difference to me, I just wanted to expose the subject to some open discussion - which it appears I have!
rej
You might have glimpsed a comment previously, but only if you were quick. With the greatest respect, your somewhat blinkered outlook is exactly why we are where we are.
Heimdall is on the button for me! Return of service is a tool already used and its expansion would help maintain an even flow through. You could almost say its in line with govt policy - get a good return on investment without spending the extra on pension and gratuity. What a pity we couldn't have this open exchange of ideas and opinions on that 'other' forum.
It makes no difference to me, I just wanted to expose the subject to some open discussion - which it appears I have!
rej
You might have glimpsed a comment previously, but only if you were quick. With the greatest respect, your somewhat blinkered outlook is exactly why we are where we are.
Heimdall is on the button for me! Return of service is a tool already used and its expansion would help maintain an even flow through. You could almost say its in line with govt policy - get a good return on investment without spending the extra on pension and gratuity. What a pity we couldn't have this open exchange of ideas and opinions on that 'other' forum.
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Chevvron
You mention an 'approved course'; I used to have a number of people working for me who emerged from an 'approved school'; does that count ?
You mention an 'approved course'; I used to have a number of people working for me who emerged from an 'approved school'; does that count ?
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Dunnjumpin
I don't think that my view is blinkered; yes maybe I was being cynical and tongue in cheek but, after 20+ years as an ATCO I have seen much change in certian directions such as a massive reduction in military traffic levels, a couple of serious incidents that knocked the specialization for 6 and the fact that our specialization still suffers from an element of stagnation and same-old, same-old tour after tour.
But at the end of the day why do we all go out to work; for the pounds, shillings and sixpences of course. In doing so we all expect, and deserve to expect, a half decent quality of life. IMHO both aspects can be achieved with less stress as a civilian ATCO. Look at the pay, the working environments and the stabilitly. Not wishing to start a political debate in world events but, notwithstanding the views of the guys and girls in uniform, I know that their families and loved-ones are overly keen on the risks associated with the OOA ops.
If you enjoy being an ATCO, as I have and still do, look at the big picture and you will see why I said that there is only one way the ATCO will go.
You say that my blinkered outlook is why we are here we are. I don't agree; I say it as I see it. If I am correct in thinking who you are, then unlike you, I speak as as ATCO and someone who has experienced just about all of the facets of the specialization that this subject relates to . Had my lot been somewhat different I would have made the move to NATS but I was not in a position to do so. I have, however, given my all to my job and remained open minded. In 1999 I was in a position where I was asked formally to give my views on amalgamation of the ATC and FC specializations. I wrote a paper in support of a combined specialization but received no feedback. If we are to move forward then we need to be bold and accept that we cannot afford to be precious; to this day I still think we should amalgamate and offer ATCOs a wider range of skills and opportunities.
I don't think that my view is blinkered; yes maybe I was being cynical and tongue in cheek but, after 20+ years as an ATCO I have seen much change in certian directions such as a massive reduction in military traffic levels, a couple of serious incidents that knocked the specialization for 6 and the fact that our specialization still suffers from an element of stagnation and same-old, same-old tour after tour.
But at the end of the day why do we all go out to work; for the pounds, shillings and sixpences of course. In doing so we all expect, and deserve to expect, a half decent quality of life. IMHO both aspects can be achieved with less stress as a civilian ATCO. Look at the pay, the working environments and the stabilitly. Not wishing to start a political debate in world events but, notwithstanding the views of the guys and girls in uniform, I know that their families and loved-ones are overly keen on the risks associated with the OOA ops.
If you enjoy being an ATCO, as I have and still do, look at the big picture and you will see why I said that there is only one way the ATCO will go.
You say that my blinkered outlook is why we are here we are. I don't agree; I say it as I see it. If I am correct in thinking who you are, then unlike you, I speak as as ATCO and someone who has experienced just about all of the facets of the specialization that this subject relates to . Had my lot been somewhat different I would have made the move to NATS but I was not in a position to do so. I have, however, given my all to my job and remained open minded. In 1999 I was in a position where I was asked formally to give my views on amalgamation of the ATC and FC specializations. I wrote a paper in support of a combined specialization but received no feedback. If we are to move forward then we need to be bold and accept that we cannot afford to be precious; to this day I still think we should amalgamate and offer ATCOs a wider range of skills and opportunities.
It's alright Rej, it's happening - slowly. Apologies for thread hijack, but when you look at the specialisations themselves there are 3 main streams/skill sets: terminal, surveillance and area/weapons. It's crying out for it, but then a lot of things are 