anotherthing

250Kts

you are correct, there are limits to conspiracy - not trusting the count maybe going a bit far, but to answer two of your points..

The figures prove the pension will need more money thrown at it to keep it viable. No one disputes that fact. It's the ability or not (or willingness) of NATS to cover the extra cost which is the whole point of the ballot.

Again, correct... but it was only after the latest valuation (bearing in mind the downturn started at the end of last summer) that the Unions got rid of the OneNATSOnePension stance (without communicating the fact to the members). Therefore the goalposts did not move until the downturn began.

MrJones

The ballot forms are to be returned to Prospect who have not exactly been unbiased in this matter and the forms have an individual serial number on them.

The question is why aren't we using an independent body.

And what guarantee do we have that there won't be a list of NO voters compiled.

Flybywyre

Someone asked a few posts ago if the ballot was being run by Robert Mugabwe, which I thought very funny and a joke.

Now I am not sure it was a joke

I will not get my ballot paper until I go home tomorrow. In the meantime
Am I right in thinking that our Unions, who are fighting in the managements vote yes corner, are:

1) Enclosing vote yes propaganda with the ballot form
2) Counting the votes themselves
3) Have marked each ballot paper so that it identifies the voter

If so it all seems very unusual. (IMHO)

250 kts

No change there then. And without wishing to be provocative if people think it is any other way then they have a lot to learn about how the process works. Conference is about the members being represented by delegates that the members choose to represent them and it is these, and only these people who get to vote.

I owld suggest it is rare for any ballot to be held without a recommendation to accept. Otherwise it is an admission that the negotiators think there is further to go. This situation is absolutely no different.

Why an ATCO-because we are so special compared to the other grades?

I'll ask again are you also unhappy with the PCS process as well?

PPRuNe Radar

The Prospect vote will have an observer, whose long family history of trade union involvement and reputation as someone above reproach speak for themselves. He has my confidence to see that fair play takes place.

I couldn't care less if the union know how I voted and decide to list me one way or another. What exactly are the BEC then going to do with that information ?? Give it to NATS Management as part of 'Shafting Staff Together' ? Sorry, I meant 'Working Together'. Or perhaps get the BEC Chairman (who is after all deemed part of the NATS Management team due to his workplace post and grade) to write me another condescending note ? In either case, they can't stop me voting the way I wish, nor can they stop me taking appropriate 'work to rule' type action on a personal basis if the vote doesn't go the way I would like it to. By doing so I emphasise that I will be complying with my NATS contracted hours and meeting all unit minimum validation requirements. I'll just be doing absolutely nothing extra such as AAVAs, attending things on rostered days off, continuing to hold validations over the MUR, and running a sector with less controllers than that agreed in the Working Practices.

PeltonLevel

It's not a bad idea to have some sort of security mechanism, although I would be happier if the serial number, if that is the approach taken, was on the back, as it is in UK elections.
I don't want someone who has a strongly held view (either way) to print their own ballot papers and do some ballot stuffing.
Ballot stuffing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

eglnyt

The package contains a letter from the Union National Secretary and one from your Branch Chairman outlining why the Union is recommending a particular vote. That's been normal in any ballot I've ever received forms for.

Some ballots have more stringent requirements prescribed by law. If this one doesn't why would you go to the extra expense ?

The forms have been individually and rather crudely numbered with a hand stamp. There has to be some basic security to stop you photocopying 200 votes and sending them in.

eglnyt

I would suggest that anybody thinking of similar action takes expert advice from the union or elsewhere before doing so. Mrs Thatcher's legislation isn't very specific about what constitutes industrial action and taking any action that may be defined as unofficial industrial action would be very unwise.

Nimmer

EGLYNT,

Your last post just shows how little you actually know about ATC working practices!!!!

To do the MUR is all any ATCO is required to do, anything else is done as 'goodwill', something that may be lacking in the ops room in the future!!!!

Or may I suggest when asked to do anything extra the words ' HOW MUCH?' are spoken, after all we may need to boost our 'non-pensionable' pay!!!

Which manager are you EGLYNT????

eglnyt

I'm no manager nor am I a lawyer specialising in industrial law but since the Thatcherite anti union legislation your rights to withdraw your goodwill have been severely curtailed. You can withdraw those things at any time as long as you don't do so in the context of industrial action. And that's the problem because unless you tell NATS why you are withdawing that goodwill it doesn't achieve much and as soon as you tell them it could be considered industrial action.

This is a very complex area of the law and you need to be very careful. If you don't believe me go off and research it yourself. DIRECT.GOV.UK is often a useful start.

Nimmer

EGLYNT

In reply I withdraw etc etc 'ON SAFETY GROUNDS', job done.

alfie1999

I emphasise that I will be complying with my NATS contracted hours and meeting all unit minimum validation requirements. I'll just be doing absolutely nothing extra such as AAVAs, attending things on rostered days off, continuing to hold validations over the MUR, and running a sector with less controllers than that agreed in the Working Practices.






I suspect you've overstepped the mark there.

eglnyt

In what way ? As far as I can see I've pointed out to a fellow poster on this forum why his proposed action may have repercussions he may not have thought of. I may be wrong in which case challenge what I'm saying. I might be right in which case it would be common sense to take what I said on board.

mr.777

I agree. Its one thing Eglnyt for you to promote the YES vote ( and don't say that you aren't, because that sh*t won't wash), quite another for you to lecture valid ATCOs on what they can and can't do.

FACT...if you are valid on a core sector at Swanwick, you are NOT required to be valid on another sector. Therefore, there is no problem with you saying you don't want to do that particular sector any more.

FACT...things like Working Groups are "extra-curricular" activities and do NOT form part of your terms and conditions as an ATCO. Therefore, again, no problem giving them up.

alfie1999

I don't know how other people interpreted your post but it read to me like a management warning dressed up as 'friendly advice'.

A sign of things to come I suspect.

Roffa

Irrespective of whichever way I've voted personally I'll respect the result and, if required, would take part in any official action that may follow. That's the way the democratic process works.

However are some on here saying that if the vote goes against their opinion and the way they personally voted, rather than accept due process they'll throw their toys out of their pram in further protest?

Very grown up.

mr.777

Why, exactly, is giving up validations above MUR and packing in working groups etc throwing your toys out of the pram? Maybe you can enlighten me as I am obviously too childish and not grown up enough to understand

eglnyt

If you read what I wrote you'd see I'm suggesting you take some time to check out whether what you think is fact actually happens to be the case. It's up to you whther or not you do that but even if you think I'm a management plant it might be prudent to do so. Anything done by the union from this point in will be done with expert legal advice for very good reason and I certainly wouldn't take individual action without similar advice.

mr.777

I would suggest that YOU re-read what I said.....YOU CAN GIVE UP A 2ND SECTOR VALIDATION ABOVE MUR WHENVER YOU WANT FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WANT

I am not condoning this or suggesting people do it, but your attitude is starting to get right up my nose now eglnyt. You lecture people 24/7 on here about this, that and the other but when proven wrong, you don't seem to have the good grace to accept this fact.

Roffa

Generically...

If you're no voter and it's a no vote will you be giving up validations etc?

If you're a no voter and it's a yes vote will you be giving up validations etc?

In both cases due democratic process is followed, why should one result cause you to take further 'action' on a personal level?

Surely, if one accepts the democratic process, one goes with the result without further 'I don't like the result on a personal level so I'm going to drop my Midlands ticket' or such like action?

If the population at large acted like that after a general election the country would soon cease to function (more so than it is anyway at the moment that is).