mode s
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
From: In t'sky
I too would be interested in this, I assume you get something akin to what we see on our MCP (the autopilot windows).
If this is the case, can you also see inputs when we are flying in VNAV/LNAV (or managed for airbus types) i.e. when the actual value selected is by our knees in the box, and not on the mantelpiece.
Horgy
If this is the case, can you also see inputs when we are flying in VNAV/LNAV (or managed for airbus types) i.e. when the actual value selected is by our knees in the box, and not on the mantelpiece.
Horgy
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
From: UK
From memory we (Terminal Control) see downlinked your MCP selected flight level, actual IAS, actual heading, ground speed and actual ROC/ROD.
We also get flight ID as well.
Your system may also be sending more data down to us but at the moment it is not displayed to the radar controllers.
We also get flight ID as well.
Your system may also be sending more data down to us but at the moment it is not displayed to the radar controllers.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: On a hill by EGLF
Roffa's memory is not wrong 
The 24 bit airframe address is obviously also there - but I don't think it's enabled for display at many of the positions in the TC ops room.
There may well be other items of data being downlinked from the airframe, but none of them are (currently) extracted from the data stream for display.
CS
The 24 bit airframe address is obviously also there - but I don't think it's enabled for display at many of the positions in the TC ops room.
There may well be other items of data being downlinked from the airframe, but none of them are (currently) extracted from the data stream for display.
CS
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Ask Screwing..
I believe that London Control has this feature which enables them to display the selected MCP (Mode Control Panel) speed, altitude and more.
I was told by a fellow pilot working for another airline that his captain mentioned that when ATC give him the speed restrictions such as 210 he dials this into the MCP "too keep the controller happy" and then proceed to descend at a faster speed. Now obviously if the controller wanted to enforce it strictly he could determine the speed difference from the ground speed if not the actual IAS if thats even possible but i digress.
This feature also has the benefit to prevent alt busts, especially the ones where pilots read back the correct cleared level and then dial up an incorrect level on the MCP.
Initially I thought what he said had to be a mistake, but after speaking with some controllers they said that despite this technology not being available in all UK centers that London certainly had it. Impressive to say the least.
On a different note could an controller enlighten me as to why there is not a better way to find out what cruising level is to be used by a particular flight. I often get calls asking whats our final level is, or prompting it in anticipation of being asked over the RT. Surly with the current data link technology and flight processing stripes I would have assumed that this information was available to controllers. Are you just confirming it with us or do you not know to start with?
I know that these levels can often change depending on the FMS optimal cruise level on the day as well as weather, commercial or traffic factors against the flight plan, perhaps this is why it is confirmed by ATC. Anyone?
I was told by a fellow pilot working for another airline that his captain mentioned that when ATC give him the speed restrictions such as 210 he dials this into the MCP "too keep the controller happy" and then proceed to descend at a faster speed. Now obviously if the controller wanted to enforce it strictly he could determine the speed difference from the ground speed if not the actual IAS if thats even possible but i digress.
This feature also has the benefit to prevent alt busts, especially the ones where pilots read back the correct cleared level and then dial up an incorrect level on the MCP.
Initially I thought what he said had to be a mistake, but after speaking with some controllers they said that despite this technology not being available in all UK centers that London certainly had it. Impressive to say the least.
On a different note could an controller enlighten me as to why there is not a better way to find out what cruising level is to be used by a particular flight. I often get calls asking whats our final level is, or prompting it in anticipation of being asked over the RT. Surly with the current data link technology and flight processing stripes I would have assumed that this information was available to controllers. Are you just confirming it with us or do you not know to start with?
I know that these levels can often change depending on the FMS optimal cruise level on the day as well as weather, commercial or traffic factors against the flight plan, perhaps this is why it is confirmed by ATC. Anyone?
Spink Pots
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
From: Up in the air
Originally Posted by AKAFresh
I believe that London Control has this feature which enables them to display the selected MCP (Mode Control Panel) speed, altitude and more.
Originally Posted by AKAFresh
I was told by a fellow pilot working for another airline that his captain mentioned that when ATC give him the speed restrictions such as 210 he dials this into the MCP "too keep the controller happy" and then proceed to descend at a faster speed. Now obviously if the controller wanted to enforce it strictly he could determine the speed difference from the ground speed if not the actual IAS if thats even possible but i digress.
Originally Posted by AKAFresh
On a different note could an controller enlighten me as to why there is not a better way to find out what cruising level is to be used by a particular flight. I often get calls asking whats our final level is, or prompting it in anticipation of being asked over the RT. Surly with the current data link technology and flight processing stripes I would have assumed that this information was available to controllers. Are you just confirming it with us or do you not know to start with?
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Southampton
AKAF
Absolutely correct - Although occasional miracle workers we're not mind readers
I know that these levels can often change depending on the FMS optimal cruise level on the day as well as weather, commercial or traffic factors against the flight plan, perhaps this is why it is confirmed by ATC. Anyone?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
From: Hants, UK
Cruising Levels:
Your filed cruise level will be used in planning sector throughputs and capacities a long time before you get airborne. Any flow control action will be based upon those levels. Therefore it is important that they are as accurate as possible. Sometimes as little as 2000ft difference can put you into a sector which has not planned to have you there and this may push them over the edge in terms of workload. Therefore, it would be great if you could encourage whoever files the FPLs (if they are not RPLs) to ensure that the cruise level is accurate.
This is especially true of cases where a relatively low level (e.g. FL290) may be filed and ATC or the crew then ask for a higher one (e.g. FL370) when airborne. The controllers may be trying to help but they may unwittingly overload another sector 500nm down the line.
LAC at least has advice running at the moment that ATCOs should not climb traffic above its FPL level unless absolutely necessary (weather, conflicting traffic etc).
Your filed cruise level will be used in planning sector throughputs and capacities a long time before you get airborne. Any flow control action will be based upon those levels. Therefore it is important that they are as accurate as possible. Sometimes as little as 2000ft difference can put you into a sector which has not planned to have you there and this may push them over the edge in terms of workload. Therefore, it would be great if you could encourage whoever files the FPLs (if they are not RPLs) to ensure that the cruise level is accurate.
This is especially true of cases where a relatively low level (e.g. FL290) may be filed and ATC or the crew then ask for a higher one (e.g. FL370) when airborne. The controllers may be trying to help but they may unwittingly overload another sector 500nm down the line.
LAC at least has advice running at the moment that ATCOs should not climb traffic above its FPL level unless absolutely necessary (weather, conflicting traffic etc).
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: South of UK
Will depend on aircraft fit:
Aircraft covered under ELS (elementary surveillance) equipage mandate will provide Mode S 24 bit address, altitude to 25ft if available, Mode A code, Flight ID and various status indications.
Aircraft equipped for EHS mandate will provide ELS plus all the IAS, Selected Altitude, Turn rate, ROC/ROD, Mach no, etc.
Where fitted, TCAS RAs and TAs are also broadcast to groundstations.
ADS-B squitter equipped aircraft also broadcast positions, Flight ID and Velocity vector.
Lots of stuff, much more useful than Mode A and Mode C!
RS
Aircraft covered under ELS (elementary surveillance) equipage mandate will provide Mode S 24 bit address, altitude to 25ft if available, Mode A code, Flight ID and various status indications.
Aircraft equipped for EHS mandate will provide ELS plus all the IAS, Selected Altitude, Turn rate, ROC/ROD, Mach no, etc.
Where fitted, TCAS RAs and TAs are also broadcast to groundstations.
ADS-B squitter equipped aircraft also broadcast positions, Flight ID and Velocity vector.
Lots of stuff, much more useful than Mode A and Mode C!
RS
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 423
Likes: 1
From: Malvern, UK
In the London TMA, aircraft are supposed to be Enhanced Mode S rather than just Elementary Mode S.
The information downliked by the Mode S radar heads is (avionics permitting):
MCP / FCU Selected Altitude
FMS Selected Altitude
The above are the only "intent" parameters. All the rest are "actuals" as follows:
Heading
IAS
TAS
Mach
Vertical Rate
Roll Angle
Track
Track Angle Rate
Ground Speed
Many of these are for "future use" either for display to the controller or to improve the radar tracking and prediction capabilities. However MCP Selected Altitude is currently being provided to controllers and I understand is considered by some to be the best thing since Mode A/C.
The information downliked by the Mode S radar heads is (avionics permitting):
MCP / FCU Selected Altitude
FMS Selected Altitude
The above are the only "intent" parameters. All the rest are "actuals" as follows:
Heading
IAS
TAS
Mach
Vertical Rate
Roll Angle
Track
Track Angle Rate
Ground Speed
Many of these are for "future use" either for display to the controller or to improve the radar tracking and prediction capabilities. However MCP Selected Altitude is currently being provided to controllers and I understand is considered by some to be the best thing since Mode A/C.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 423
Likes: 1
From: Malvern, UK
Sorry, but FMS Selected Altitude is in there, although not currently used. EUROCONTROL are currently analysing how consistently it behaves across aircraft types and thus can it be effective for monitoring RNAV procedures.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 2
From: UK
In the London TMA, aircraft are supposed to be Enhanced Mode S rather than just Elementary Mode S.
