altitude report under radar?
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: india
altitude report under radar?
radar environment altitude report
hi. please can someone ,.especially from atc, enlighten me whether as per regulation esp jaa reg .....after radar contact with mode c - and u are cleared to change level -- are u required to report vacating old level and maintaining new level. either way would appreciate regulation source and document reference . thanks a million. this thread posted in this forum hoping to get some atco attention
hi. please can someone ,.especially from atc, enlighten me whether as per regulation esp jaa reg .....after radar contact with mode c - and u are cleared to change level -- are u required to report vacating old level and maintaining new level. either way would appreciate regulation source and document reference . thanks a million. this thread posted in this forum hoping to get some atco attention
Joined: May 2006
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From: zurich
Not sure of the docs and not sure if correct.
According ICAO, aircraft should report leaving and report reaching levels.
Reporting can be reduced. i.e. with Mode C there is not need to report reaching but still must report leaving.
Only reason I can see for this is it makes ATCs job easier. Once an acft has reported leaving a level it maybe allocated to another acft. With no report the Mode C must indicate more than 300 feet from vacated level.
ch
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From: Earth
According ICAO, aircraft should report leaving and report reaching levels.
Reporting can be reduced. i.e. with Mode C there is not need to report reaching but still must report leaving.
Reporting can be reduced. i.e. with Mode C there is not need to report reaching but still must report leaving.
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: Baghdad
Not necessary here
In the US it is not necessary to report leaving or reaching an altitude unless requested by ATC. Indeed, such reports are discouraged by controllers. I believe that the only exception is when an aircraft is issued a discretion descent.
I don't see the logic in ICAO's reasoning on this. Must lead to a lot of frequency congestion in busy sectors with aircraft transmitting all those reports of leaving and reaching altitudes.
I toured Moscow Control several years ago, and several controllers there were annoyed by US pilots not making those altitude reports. Clearly those pilots should follow the flight regs of the country they are flying in, but I still thought it was humorous because over here we get annoyed by European pilots giving altitude reports.
I don't see the logic in ICAO's reasoning on this. Must lead to a lot of frequency congestion in busy sectors with aircraft transmitting all those reports of leaving and reaching altitudes.
I toured Moscow Control several years ago, and several controllers there were annoyed by US pilots not making those altitude reports. Clearly those pilots should follow the flight regs of the country they are flying in, but I still thought it was humorous because over here we get annoyed by European pilots giving altitude reports.
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From: Earth
Doc 4444 says:
8.5.5.2.2 Aircraft maintaining a level. An aircraft is considered to be maintaining its assigned level as long as the
pressure-altitude-derived level information indicates that it is within the appropriate tolerances of the assigned level, as
specified in 8.5.5.2.1.
8.5.5.2.3 Aircraft vacating a level. An aircraft cleared to leave a level is considered to have commenced its
manoeuvre and vacated the previously occupied level when the pressure-altitude-derived level information indicates a
change of more than 90 m (300 ft) in the anticipated direction from its previously assigned level.
8.5.5.2.5 Aircraft reaching a level. An aircraft is considered to have reached the level to which it has been cleared
when the elapsed time of three display updates, three sensor updates or 15 seconds, whichever is the greater, has passed
since the pressure-altitude-derived level information has indicated that it is within the appropriate tolerances of the
assigned level, as specified in 8.5.5.2.1.
One might think that it is unnecessary to report leaving and reaching but still it is quite a common practice. I just can't find any documents supporting this practice.
8.5.5.2.2 Aircraft maintaining a level. An aircraft is considered to be maintaining its assigned level as long as the
pressure-altitude-derived level information indicates that it is within the appropriate tolerances of the assigned level, as
specified in 8.5.5.2.1.
8.5.5.2.3 Aircraft vacating a level. An aircraft cleared to leave a level is considered to have commenced its
manoeuvre and vacated the previously occupied level when the pressure-altitude-derived level information indicates a
change of more than 90 m (300 ft) in the anticipated direction from its previously assigned level.
8.5.5.2.5 Aircraft reaching a level. An aircraft is considered to have reached the level to which it has been cleared
when the elapsed time of three display updates, three sensor updates or 15 seconds, whichever is the greater, has passed
since the pressure-altitude-derived level information has indicated that it is within the appropriate tolerances of the
assigned level, as specified in 8.5.5.2.1.
One might think that it is unnecessary to report leaving and reaching but still it is quite a common practice. I just can't find any documents supporting this practice.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Somewhere
Ramzez - for your European perspective, look at the following document issued by Eurocontrol regards recommendations to improve communications and situational awareness to reduce level busts.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/safety/ga...es/BN_Gen1.pdf
Section 5.5 C
http://www.eurocontrol.int/safety/ga...es/BN_Gen1.pdf
Section 5.5 C
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From: There's no place like home!
UK APS course teaches that if a pilot reports vacating a level following an instruction to do so, then that level can be allocated to another aircraft immediately; otherwise the controller must wait until the Mode C readout indicates a change of level of 400 feet and continuing in the desired direction before clearing another aircraft to the previously occupied level (obviously common sense dictates that this does not apply to opposing climbing/descending flights!)
UK CAP 493 MATS Part I , Section 1, Chapter 3 Page 3 states:
"5.4 Changing Levels
5.4.2 An aircraft may be instructed to climb or descend to a level previously occupied by another aircraft provided that:..........
c) either:
but it also states in Section 1 Chapter 5 Page 10:
"9.3 Level Assessment using Mode C
9.3.1 The following criteria apply when assessing the vertical position of a Mode C transponding aircraft:.........
b) An aircraft which is known to have been instructed to climb or descend may be considered to have left a level when the Mode C readout indicates a change of 400 feet or more from that level and is continuing in the anticipated direction";
Which of the above options is likely to get the job done more quickly??!
UK CAP 493 MATS Part I , Section 1, Chapter 3 Page 3 states:
"5.4 Changing Levels
5.4.2 An aircraft may be instructed to climb or descend to a level previously occupied by another aircraft provided that:..........
c) either:
i) the controller observes that the vacating aircraft has left the level; or
ii) the pilot has reported vacating the level."
ii) the pilot has reported vacating the level."
but it also states in Section 1 Chapter 5 Page 10:
"9.3 Level Assessment using Mode C
9.3.1 The following criteria apply when assessing the vertical position of a Mode C transponding aircraft:.........
b) An aircraft which is known to have been instructed to climb or descend may be considered to have left a level when the Mode C readout indicates a change of 400 feet or more from that level and is continuing in the anticipated direction";
Which of the above options is likely to get the job done more quickly??!
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Somewhere
Ramzez - well I would definitely argue that both reporting leaving and reporting reaching levels have equal weight in preventing level busts. Both increase pilot and controller awareness. I can't find a specific statement for reporting reaching but you could cite section 4.23 from the following document from the same Eurocontrol Level Bust Briefing Notes.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/safety/ga...es/BN_Gen2.pdf
and argue that it is providing the controller with advance information.
On a separate note it is interesting to see the USA perspective as quoted by Radarking. There is a FAA/USAir study mentioned in the same documents. With 70% of level busts examined due to breakdown of pilot/controller communication loop, you would think they should be using its recommendations!!
http://www.eurocontrol.int/safety/ga...es/BN_Gen2.pdf
and argue that it is providing the controller with advance information.
On a separate note it is interesting to see the USA perspective as quoted by Radarking. There is a FAA/USAir study mentioned in the same documents. With 70% of level busts examined due to breakdown of pilot/controller communication loop, you would think they should be using its recommendations!!
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Atlanta, GA, USA
In the US it is not necessary to report leaving or reaching an altitude unless requested by ATC. Indeed, such reports are discouraged by controllers. I believe that the only exception is when an aircraft is issued a discretion descent.
AIM 5-3-3
5-3-3. Additional Reports
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
Don Brown
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Earth
Below are the only regulations I have been able to find where it states that you have to report reaching a level.
French NAT-region AIC:
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv....2007_13_EN.pdf
1. report leaving a flight level as soon as you begin your climb or descent ;
2. similarly, report reaching a flight level as soon as you are level ;
3. in RVSM airspace, provide the reports even if ATC has not specifically requested them.
Canadian AIP:
RAC - 8.0 INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES (IFR) ? EN ROUTE PROCEDURES
Although the CARs do not specifically direct pilots to report altitude information to ATC, pilots, if not operating in radar airspace (i.e. radar-identified by ATC), should report reaching the altitude to which the flight has been initially cleared. When climbing or descending en route, pilots should report when leaving a previously-assigned altitude and when reaching the assigned altitude.
Hong Kong AIP:
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/ENR/HK_ENR1.8.pdf
Except in a radar environment, pilots shall report reaching any level assigned within RVSM airspace
French NAT-region AIC:
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv....2007_13_EN.pdf
1. report leaving a flight level as soon as you begin your climb or descent ;
2. similarly, report reaching a flight level as soon as you are level ;
3. in RVSM airspace, provide the reports even if ATC has not specifically requested them.
Canadian AIP:
RAC - 8.0 INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES (IFR) ? EN ROUTE PROCEDURES
Although the CARs do not specifically direct pilots to report altitude information to ATC, pilots, if not operating in radar airspace (i.e. radar-identified by ATC), should report reaching the altitude to which the flight has been initially cleared. When climbing or descending en route, pilots should report when leaving a previously-assigned altitude and when reaching the assigned altitude.
Hong Kong AIP:
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/ENR/HK_ENR1.8.pdf
Except in a radar environment, pilots shall report reaching any level assigned within RVSM airspace
