Scottish TMA v. Glasgow
de minimus non curat lex
Thread Starter
Scottish TMA v. Glasgow
A simple enough question to ask, but perhaps the solution might be complex to implement.
1. Why cannot the STARS continue pass LANAK, and feed directly onto final for 05 & 23, with defined speed control to provide the necessary separation?
2. This would reduce RT workload due to defined vertical and horizontal profiles. Clearly there will be occasions when ATC intervention will be necessary.
3. This style of approach would allow for a better CFP computation of fuel burns, thus refining [lowering] the ramp fuel figure on most days.
LVPs always a judgment call as to extra fuel to be carried.
4. The price of fuel has concentrated the minds of the bean counters even with hedging present.
Perhaps an ATCO or two [Miss D] from No.54 course might look at this issue [cryptic clue] and start the ball rolling !!
Sunny Troon
1. Why cannot the STARS continue pass LANAK, and feed directly onto final for 05 & 23, with defined speed control to provide the necessary separation?
2. This would reduce RT workload due to defined vertical and horizontal profiles. Clearly there will be occasions when ATC intervention will be necessary.
3. This style of approach would allow for a better CFP computation of fuel burns, thus refining [lowering] the ramp fuel figure on most days.
LVPs always a judgment call as to extra fuel to be carried.
4. The price of fuel has concentrated the minds of the bean counters even with hedging present.
Perhaps an ATCO or two [Miss D] from No.54 course might look at this issue [cryptic clue] and start the ball rolling !!
Sunny Troon
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I shall take a good enough guess. And hope it is correct.
WARNING/DISCLAIMER: I am not ATC. Just someone who lives in Glasgow.
The paper a few years ago was discussing the rerouteing of the approach into Glasgow, and the local residents rejected it and raised complaint because it would increase noise. It also would fly over the more influential areas of Glasgow, instead of over the forgotten bit's, and areas I live in aka Drumchapel.
Never mind when landing I think it's a nice view.
WARNING/DISCLAIMER: I am not ATC. Just someone who lives in Glasgow.
The paper a few years ago was discussing the rerouteing of the approach into Glasgow, and the local residents rejected it and raised complaint because it would increase noise. It also would fly over the more influential areas of Glasgow, instead of over the forgotten bit's, and areas I live in aka Drumchapel.
Never mind when landing I think it's a nice view.
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Arrivals come from multiple directions (LOMON, FYNER, TRN, STIRA), not just LANAK, so it is too simplistic to assume that arrivals can be spaced and speeded onto the ILS via LANAK.
Arrivals via LANAK for RWY23 are more or less pointing towards final anyway and when RWY05 is in use and traffic permits, direct routeings to centrefix are co-ordinated between Glasgow and Scottish.
Arrivals via LANAK for RWY23 are more or less pointing towards final anyway and when RWY05 is in use and traffic permits, direct routeings to centrefix are co-ordinated between Glasgow and Scottish.
de minimus non curat lex
Thread Starter
CDA
Some questions to ask are:
i. what percentage of GLA inbounds route through LANAK
ii. what saving can be achieved in RT loading & fuel using a CDA technique
iii. other STARS might also benefit from CDA. Use vectors/speed control as required. Think big picture, outside the box. THINK FUEL.
It goes without saying that safety is number one priority at all times!!
i. what percentage of GLA inbounds route through LANAK
ii. what saving can be achieved in RT loading & fuel using a CDA technique
iii. other STARS might also benefit from CDA. Use vectors/speed control as required. Think big picture, outside the box. THINK FUEL.
It goes without saying that safety is number one priority at all times!!
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Believe me, we are all thinking about your fuel burn these days and CDAs are high on the agenda, clearly we need you as much as you need us! However, as I'm sure you must be aware, the STMA is very busy at peak times and a formalised system is required to safely handle multiple arrivals to both Glasgow and Edinburgh. This inevitably results in some delay (holding, vectors for spacing, speed reductions etc) and some arrivals will fly less than optimum profiles.
Hopefully more flexibility can be introduced during off peak times, this is where I think we can make improvements, but we will always be restricted by the limitations of the airspace structure we have to work within.
Hopefully more flexibility can be introduced during off peak times, this is where I think we can make improvements, but we will always be restricted by the limitations of the airspace structure we have to work within.
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Agree with Talla on this one. It would be a marvellous idea in theory and CDAs are always at the forefront of our planning where practicable...however, Glasgow arrivals come in from all points of the compass and from 4 different sectors at Scottish, not to mention fequent inbounds from PH and PK as well as transits between PH and PK plus a lot more besides! Who is going to be able to coordinate all of these various agencies to enable the Talla controller to simply sequence all the LANAK arrivals straight to the centrefix? As I said, it would be a great idea, but completely unworkable in the Scottish TMA.
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Im in agreement with the two above, great idea far to complicated, therefore I would suggest that any additional benefits for saving fuel could have a negative impact on capacity.
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Isn't the termination point of a STAR also do do with the implications of a radio fail? Procedural approaches etc much more orderly when set up from the holding facility. Don't know enough about the STMA to comment on this exact situation though.
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Throw in the concept of a centre-fix FMS approach to 23 and it becomes a "reet can o' worms leek!
Mind the Campsies.
"This ain't no mean town,
No mean city"
.
Mind the Campsies
."This ain't no mean town,
No mean city"
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Last edited by ZOOKER; 30th Jul 2008 at 22:20.
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A Standard Terminal Arrival Route is precisely that, a predetermined route with speed and height restrictions to enable aircraft to arrive at a terminal holding facility. It provides a clearance limit and is obviously a good idea in the event of R/T fail or RADAR failure.
As people have mentioned previously, if a continuous descent or direct routing to a centrefix is available, then it will generally be given and is especially common at night. Alternatively, a route via a holding FIX/position ending in a RADAR or procedural approach may be more appropriate depending on the traffric and/or equipment situation at the time.
I do work in AREA, hence the name, but I think this would be a fair description of how my colleagues at Scottish/Glasgow would view the matter.
Regards
AREA52
As people have mentioned previously, if a continuous descent or direct routing to a centrefix is available, then it will generally be given and is especially common at night. Alternatively, a route via a holding FIX/position ending in a RADAR or procedural approach may be more appropriate depending on the traffric and/or equipment situation at the time.
I do work in AREA, hence the name, but I think this would be a fair description of how my colleagues at Scottish/Glasgow would view the matter.
Regards
AREA52
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1. Why cannot the STARS continue pass LANAK, and feed directly onto final for 05 & 23, with defined speed control to provide the necessary separation?
The current setup is a safe one. Glasgow bring you on in a controlled manner, descending with cognisance of other traffic in the TMA area, and the Galloway sector at Scottish climb the EDI departures to jump the arrivals who they know will be descending to cross the sector boundary North of LANAK below an agreed level under the control of Glasgow. If it's all looking a bit complicated for ATC, there is the backstop of holding you at LANAK, an option which is not automatically there with your proposal.
