Jetstar plane 'seconds from crash'
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Jetstar plane 'seconds from crash'
Air safety watchdog to probe 'near miss'
05:54 AEST Fri Jul 18 2008
4 hours 27 minutes ago
Related links:
EXCLUSIVE: Controller shortage causes havoc
Australia's air safety watchdog is investigating a report that a US Learjet came within 60 seconds of a possible collision with a Jetstar Airbus because of confusion about uncontrolled airspace. The incident reportedly occurred last Saturday after a section of airspace on the Melbourne to Sydney route suddenly became unmonitored at 7.30am (AEST) due to an air traffic control staff shortage. News Ltd today reports it has obtained the incident report that was lodged by the air traffic controller on duty, which states the Learjet pilot was "briefly uncontactable" because he was on a different frequency. The incident report also states the controller was "concerned" about the risk to northbound air traffic, particularly Jetstar flight JS720. The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has confirmed it is investigating while the air traffic controllers' union says it shows the current safety regime has unacceptable safety levels. "Aeroplanes passing 15 miles apart may seem like a lot," Robert Mason, from the union Civil Air, said. "But they are travelling so fast that in some scenarios there can be less than 60 seconds to react and avoid an incident." Government body Airservices Australia says the 15 nautical mile separation was three times the required limit in that sector. There was "no safety occurrence and no breakdown of air traffic control safety standards," a spokesman said.
Air safety watchdog to probe 'near miss'
05:54 AEST Fri Jul 18 2008
4 hours 27 minutes ago
Related links:
EXCLUSIVE: Controller shortage causes havoc
Australia's air safety watchdog is investigating a report that a US Learjet came within 60 seconds of a possible collision with a Jetstar Airbus because of confusion about uncontrolled airspace. The incident reportedly occurred last Saturday after a section of airspace on the Melbourne to Sydney route suddenly became unmonitored at 7.30am (AEST) due to an air traffic control staff shortage. News Ltd today reports it has obtained the incident report that was lodged by the air traffic controller on duty, which states the Learjet pilot was "briefly uncontactable" because he was on a different frequency. The incident report also states the controller was "concerned" about the risk to northbound air traffic, particularly Jetstar flight JS720. The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has confirmed it is investigating while the air traffic controllers' union says it shows the current safety regime has unacceptable safety levels. "Aeroplanes passing 15 miles apart may seem like a lot," Robert Mason, from the union Civil Air, said. "But they are travelling so fast that in some scenarios there can be less than 60 seconds to react and avoid an incident." Government body Airservices Australia says the 15 nautical mile separation was three times the required limit in that sector. There was "no safety occurrence and no breakdown of air traffic control safety standards," a spokesman said.
Air safety watchdog to probe 'near miss'
Journo?
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Lon, I hope it is a journo. This needs press coverage. Any journo may feel welcome if they want to PM me.
My fav part is
There were no breakdowns of educational standards, building standards or any other standards. Can't have a breakdown of standards where NO STANDARDS APPLY. Gotta love spin doctors.
I love Airservices new corporate slogan
"Excellence in Standardless Standards".
My fav part is
There was "no safety occurrence and no breakdown of air traffic control safety standards," a spokesman said.
I love Airservices new corporate slogan
"Excellence in Standardless Standards".
More than just an ATCO
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Reading the original as a European controller, although now long retired, it seems a bit short of factual details and a bit long on journalese.
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60 seconds? A whole minute?? If I'd had two aircraft that far apart at London I'd have gone off and had a cuppa...
"Aeroplanes passing 15 miles apart may seem like a lot,"
A "lot" ?- jeezz it's a whole Universe!!!
"Aeroplanes passing 15 miles apart may seem like a lot,"
A "lot" ?- jeezz it's a whole Universe!!!
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Heathrow guy, I suggest you read the D and G forums for an expansion on this along with the TIBA thread.
The issue is that in Australia they cannot staff sectors and are shutting them down but allowing aircraft to fly through them using the TIBA procedures. Confusion is reigning and things are going amiss.
Thankfully the Journos are all over this in Australia already.
15 miles under positive radar control and 15 miles involving non standard operations with no control or traffic information service for jet aircraft at cruising levels are vastly different. Uberlingen is testimony to that.
The issue is that in Australia they cannot staff sectors and are shutting them down but allowing aircraft to fly through them using the TIBA procedures. Confusion is reigning and things are going amiss.
Thankfully the Journos are all over this in Australia already.
15 miles under positive radar control and 15 miles involving non standard operations with no control or traffic information service for jet aircraft at cruising levels are vastly different. Uberlingen is testimony to that.
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As tobzalp says, there is a world of difference between traffic going the same way in the LHR sausage machine at slow airspeeds and opposite direction traffic in the upper air with a closing speed of almost 1000 Knots with no effective control and separation being applied.
Plenty background info in the D&G Forum to show why even the 'good old days' ivory tower controlling of LHR would not be applicable or relevant in the situation being discussed.
Plenty background info in the D&G Forum to show why even the 'good old days' ivory tower controlling of LHR would not be applicable or relevant in the situation being discussed.
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Vercingetorix,
With deference to HDs experience, what is being pointed out is, that 15 miles with both aircraft on frequency and positively separated is a nothing.
The moderator is pointing out that this was not the case, and suggesting HD have a look at the D and G threads (and also here in ATC/ NoATC-TIBA- Your experiences) to see the Russian roulette a supposedly first world ANSP and Regulator are content to let the aircraft fly through at flight levels.
I would appreciate HDs comments, as they are usually pretty good.
What are you, his minder?
With deference to HDs experience, what is being pointed out is, that 15 miles with both aircraft on frequency and positively separated is a nothing.
The moderator is pointing out that this was not the case, and suggesting HD have a look at the D and G threads (and also here in ATC/ NoATC-TIBA- Your experiences) to see the Russian roulette a supposedly first world ANSP and Regulator are content to let the aircraft fly through at flight levels.
I would appreciate HDs comments, as they are usually pretty good.
What are you, his minder?
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TIBA is a bit new term for me. Does it have anything
in common with the term AFIS that is used in Finland and
some other countries?
(AFIS is acronym Aerodrome Flight Information Service).
There are a few airfields in Finland with AFIS status, where there
is somebody sitting in the tower cab, with no training nor validation
for TWR controlling.
The separation in the AFIS zone is the sole responsibilty of the pilots.
The AFIS guy/gal gives traffic and runway information on the frequency
and does the weather reports etc.
In Finland the airspace classification of the AFIS is somewhat exotic,
it is called G+, if i recall right. (Should renew my PPL actually
)
in common with the term AFIS that is used in Finland and
some other countries?
(AFIS is acronym Aerodrome Flight Information Service).
There are a few airfields in Finland with AFIS status, where there
is somebody sitting in the tower cab, with no training nor validation
for TWR controlling.
The separation in the AFIS zone is the sole responsibilty of the pilots.
The AFIS guy/gal gives traffic and runway information on the frequency
and does the weather reports etc.
In Finland the airspace classification of the AFIS is somewhat exotic,
it is called G+, if i recall right. (Should renew my PPL actually
)
@ Slo Moe
TIBA is below Class G - more correctly, it isn't anything at all! There is no control service provided, nor any traffic information. The frequency is not monitored in any way, shape, or form by ATC. If you have an engine die and you declare a mayday, there is no-one (other than other aircraft which may or may not be there) to call help for you. You broadcast your position and intentions on the frequency, and try to seperate yourself from other traffic as best you can.
It is supposed to be a contingency for when ATC is unable to be provided, however it is being used more and more frequently in Australia due to an inability by Airservices Australia (the ATC provider) to staff sectors (I am just a pilot - I am in no position to say what the underlying reasons for this is) . We are talking center frequencies comprising what is normally Class A airspace with jets flying around at high speeds, 15nmi of seperation is nowhere near safe given the circumstances! Ideally it shouldn't be allowed to occur at all!
TIBA is below Class G - more correctly, it isn't anything at all! There is no control service provided, nor any traffic information. The frequency is not monitored in any way, shape, or form by ATC. If you have an engine die and you declare a mayday, there is no-one (other than other aircraft which may or may not be there) to call help for you. You broadcast your position and intentions on the frequency, and try to seperate yourself from other traffic as best you can.
It is supposed to be a contingency for when ATC is unable to be provided, however it is being used more and more frequently in Australia due to an inability by Airservices Australia (the ATC provider) to staff sectors (I am just a pilot - I am in no position to say what the underlying reasons for this is) . We are talking center frequencies comprising what is normally Class A airspace with jets flying around at high speeds, 15nmi of seperation is nowhere near safe given the circumstances! Ideally it shouldn't be allowed to occur at all!
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I am well aware of HDs experience, and in things concerned with Approach Control he is a respected contributor.
However, comments such as
and
don't indicate a full understanding of the different environment in an en route airspace, especially under TIBA. If the comments are meant in jest, then the use of smilies might have been a mitigation. As comments to be taken at face value, I'm more than happy to point out a possible lack of understanding.
However, comments such as
60 seconds? A whole minute?? If I'd had two aircraft that far apart at London I'd have gone off and had a cuppa...
"Aeroplanes passing 15 miles apart may seem like a lot,"
A "lot" ?- jeezz it's a whole Universe!!!
A "lot" ?- jeezz it's a whole Universe!!!
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Thanks for the comments PPrune Radar.... I always speak highly of you. I didn't only work at Heathrow's Ivory Tower (what an abysmally churlish remark?). I worked in Area Control overseas with military jets so I do have a smattering of knowledge of various separation standards and didn't spend all my time poking things around at 170kts.
I sincerely apologise for not full appreciating the TIBA situation which was not properly explained in the quoted news story, which smacks somewhat of sensationalism.
I sincerely apologise for not full appreciating the TIBA situation which was not properly explained in the quoted news story, which smacks somewhat of sensationalism.
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We'll draw a line under that side issue then ... 
The fact remains that a State with an organised and good ATC structure provided a less than satisfactory situation. That's no criticism of controllers there in any way. It's a criticism that management did not close airspace where ATC was expected and instead allowed a 'do it yourself' separation service to be undertaken.
I somehow think that if NATS did the same for Heathrow Approach due to no staff being available, there would be a bit of jumping up and down by the UK ATCOs on here, and rightly so. Our Ozzie mates should therefore have our support in attacking this unsafe system, as well as being afforded the courtesy of non Oz ATC PPRuNers researching and understanding exactly what the problem is over there.
The fact remains that a State with an organised and good ATC structure provided a less than satisfactory situation. That's no criticism of controllers there in any way. It's a criticism that management did not close airspace where ATC was expected and instead allowed a 'do it yourself' separation service to be undertaken.
I somehow think that if NATS did the same for Heathrow Approach due to no staff being available, there would be a bit of jumping up and down by the UK ATCOs on here, and rightly so. Our Ozzie mates should therefore have our support in attacking this unsafe system, as well as being afforded the courtesy of non Oz ATC PPRuNers researching and understanding exactly what the problem is over there.
Interestingly enough its not soley the centres that suffer from TIBA. The TCU went TIBA for a few hours one morning in Perth WA. Made the headlines in a big way as Qantas wouldn't fly through the airspace so therefore couldn't depart Perth Airport.
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The TCU went TIBA for a few hours one morning in Perth WA.
Something is wrong if you have arrivals/departures stream trough uncontrolled space.
It is not enough to say that ASA represents 1st world class service.
Make difference between yourself(ASA) and Angola's ANSP!
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@ NZScion
Thank you for your reply. Wohoa :-o
I rather fly fully uncontrolled than TIBA.
If I may choose.
And I may.
I will also add a line or two to the ATCO night prayer.
Thank you for your reply. Wohoa :-o
I rather fly fully uncontrolled than TIBA.
If I may choose.
And I may.
I will also add a line or two to the ATCO night prayer.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 20th Jul 2008 at 18:58. Reason: Changed smiley to big rounded mouth of not believing this is true. Absolutely shocked! In a civilized country.
