STN Delivery QNH Readback
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 1998
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From: 🇬🇧🇪🇸
STN Delivery QNH Readback
Why do you guys in STN Delivery insist we readback the QNH again when we've already stated it in our preamble? Seems a total waste of R/T on an already congested frequency. Can't you just say "....QNH correct, for start & push contact Ground on ...".
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: UK
From Mats Part 1 CAP493, Appendix E
5.6 Pilot Read Back of RTF Messages
5.6.1 Pilots are required to read back in full messages containing any of the following items:
• Taxi instructions
• Level instructions
• Heading instructions
• Speed instructions
• Airways or route clearances
• Approach clearances
• Runway-in-use
• Clearance to enter, land on, take-off, backtrack, cross or hold short of any active
runway
• SSR operating instructions
• Altimeter settings
• VDF information
• Frequency changes
• Type of radar service
• Transition levels
5.6.2 Controllers are to prompt a pilot if a read back is not immediately forthcoming.
5.6.3 Errors in a read back must be corrected by the controller until the pilot gives an
accurate read back.
5.6 Pilot Read Back of RTF Messages
5.6.1 Pilots are required to read back in full messages containing any of the following items:
• Taxi instructions
• Level instructions
• Heading instructions
• Speed instructions
• Airways or route clearances
• Approach clearances
• Runway-in-use
• Clearance to enter, land on, take-off, backtrack, cross or hold short of any active
runway
• SSR operating instructions
• Altimeter settings
• VDF information
• Frequency changes
• Type of radar service
• Transition levels
5.6.2 Controllers are to prompt a pilot if a read back is not immediately forthcoming.
5.6.3 Errors in a read back must be corrected by the controller until the pilot gives an
accurate read back.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,266
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From: Berkshire, UK
If the man has correctly read the QNH in his first call, as derived from the ATIS, what is the point in repeating the process? I have heard controllers descending aircraft to altitudes and each 1000 ft "step down" they give the QNH! Over-use of R/T!
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: LHR/EGLL
At Heathrow, if you give the correct QNH on first contact (along with type, stand, ATIS letter etc), then you have it as far as we're concerned. In fact, Stansted use the same electronic system as us, and we note on your flight strip that you've given the correct QNH. I can only assume Stansted is the same. So I'm not sure why they transmit the QNH again, forcing you to read it back.
Anyone from SS here?
Anyone from SS here?
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: ASBO Central
As has been stated we don't. If you give it to us in your preamble and its correct then it goes on the strip and it shouldn't get mentioned by the controller. In fact it greatly reduces the RT load if you do give us the QNH on first contact so please continue doing so.
There is a lot of coordination between delivery and the other positions so several times I have missed the first few seconds of a new aircraft calling for clearance, I may pick up the callsign and destination and not be entirely sure if I heard the QNH. So simply put, if I'm in any doubt that the pilot did not give it, or I did not hear it, then I will give it again and expect a readback. I can't speak for other controllers but for some it may just be force of habit to give it again regardless!
cheers
There is a lot of coordination between delivery and the other positions so several times I have missed the first few seconds of a new aircraft calling for clearance, I may pick up the callsign and destination and not be entirely sure if I heard the QNH. So simply put, if I'm in any doubt that the pilot did not give it, or I did not hear it, then I will give it again and expect a readback. I can't speak for other controllers but for some it may just be force of habit to give it again regardless!
cheers
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 1998
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From: 🇬🇧🇪🇸
Yes, it may be force of habit by only one or two controllers.
We really should be cutting down on verbose R/T though, for instance again at STN we normally obtain the Clearance via DCL.....therefore in the PDC we've already given you the Callsign (XYZ 123), Stand number & ATIS letter. All we should have to say next on our initial R/T call to Delivery should be "XYZ 123 Fully ready for start & push" provided the PDC has been received and accepted in advance.
We really should be cutting down on verbose R/T though, for instance again at STN we normally obtain the Clearance via DCL.....therefore in the PDC we've already given you the Callsign (XYZ 123), Stand number & ATIS letter. All we should have to say next on our initial R/T call to Delivery should be "XYZ 123 Fully ready for start & push" provided the PDC has been received and accepted in advance.
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: ASBO Central
Regards the DCL, were unable to give the QNH with the electronic clearance so we still need to either hear it from you or give it to you if you don't mention it. ATIS letter is not really needed but stand number does help to confirm what we have on the strip, the stand info can be dubious sometimes, and helps pilots/tug drivers etc situational awareness on the ground. Even so the amount of time and RT the DCL saves is great!
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 683
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From: UK
Why this obsession with QNH readback nowadays?
There are only three cases where it is needed to be read back or confirmed:
1) On or before first cleared altitude on departure,
2) On first cleared descent from a FL to an altitude, and
3) If the QNH changes.
Anything else becomes either ATC clutter or potential for confusion.
End of story, surely ... ?
JD
There are only three cases where it is needed to be read back or confirmed:
1) On or before first cleared altitude on departure,
2) On first cleared descent from a FL to an altitude, and
3) If the QNH changes.
Anything else becomes either ATC clutter or potential for confusion.
End of story, surely ... ?
JD
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 63
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From: Seaworld
Probably sounds a bit like overkill to many pilots, but it's one of those box ticking exercises that ATC need to make sure they've ticked to avoid getting hauled up on something easy at a later date.
As has already been stated, you may well have given it when you check in but we are on the phone a lot of the time, whether to radar, airport authority, other position in the tower, etc so we don't always catch everything that's said. No doubt it's annoying, but it's just one of those things. Just like when we give an instruction and it's not heard by pilots as you're probably busy doing checks or speaking to your handling agent or company. Just one of those things.
As has already been stated, you may well have given it when you check in but we are on the phone a lot of the time, whether to radar, airport authority, other position in the tower, etc so we don't always catch everything that's said. No doubt it's annoying, but it's just one of those things. Just like when we give an instruction and it's not heard by pilots as you're probably busy doing checks or speaking to your handling agent or company. Just one of those things.
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: UK
JD
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 624
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From: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
There are only three cases where it is needed to be read back or confirmed:
1) On or before first cleared altitude on departure,
2) On first cleared descent from a FL to an altitude, and
3) If the QNH changes.
Anything else becomes either ATC clutter or potential for confusion.
End of story, surely ... ?
1) On or before first cleared altitude on departure,
2) On first cleared descent from a FL to an altitude, and
3) If the QNH changes.
Anything else becomes either ATC clutter or potential for confusion.
End of story, surely ... ?
BTW BigBoeing is correct in that we sometimes miss the QNH in the rapid delivery of all that information in a 'foreign' accent. So sorry if you have to repeat it but surely better twice than not at all, no?
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 65
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From: uk
Why this obsession with QNH readback nowadays?
There are only three cases where it is needed to be read back or confirmed:
1) On or before first cleared altitude on departure,
2) On first cleared descent from a FL to an altitude, and
3) If the QNH changes.
Anything else becomes either ATC clutter or potential for confusion.
End of story, surely ... ?
There are only three cases where it is needed to be read back or confirmed:
1) On or before first cleared altitude on departure,
2) On first cleared descent from a FL to an altitude, and
3) If the QNH changes.
Anything else becomes either ATC clutter or potential for confusion.
End of story, surely ... ?
you say 'if qnh changes'...but how do we know what qnh you have? I can only relate to aerodrome ops but on start up, you could have anything in there.
One day a few months ago, the QNH dropped 10mb in an hour. If you missed one (regular) atis, then you could have had a qnh setting leaving you over 300ft out from where you should have been.
Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Polymer Records
At a certain regional airfield which I am sure anyone who has flown in to will recognise, it is not unusual to have to readback QNH numerous times.
Indeed, last week I actually had to readback the QNH 7 times from initial contact until take off. No delivery or ground so all the same controller
If they didn't do it all the time I would have assumed she was just bored and taking the p=ss.
Indeed, last week I actually had to readback the QNH 7 times from initial contact until take off. No delivery or ground so all the same controller
If they didn't do it all the time I would have assumed she was just bored and taking the p=ss.
