Ryanair and NATS strike:ugh:
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It`s about time somebody makes Ryanair fly what they file.
I'm working in the Maastricht Brussels sector and whenever we get Ryanair overflights, they allways file KONAN at FL230, but they allways come at FL370
Only reason for this is to avoid being counted in our airspace, and so avoid a refusal, a reroute or a delay. Basically to cheat the system.
One day we should just enforce their requested levels according their flight plan!
I'm working in the Maastricht Brussels sector and whenever we get Ryanair overflights, they allways file KONAN at FL230, but they allways come at FL370
Only reason for this is to avoid being counted in our airspace, and so avoid a refusal, a reroute or a delay. Basically to cheat the system.
One day we should just enforce their requested levels according their flight plan!
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fly_ebos As Pilots we have been told by the company that these Flight Plans (FPLs) are "tactically" filed at these levels to avoid known delays and slots, and that this was done on the advice of Eurocontrol themselves. However we are instructed to request higher levels en route as over a 2 hour flight the difference in fuel usage is substantial.
Can I also just say, if it needs to be said, that those of us in the driving seat are just as mortified with embarrassment and angered about these daft press releases, court cases, banners painted on our aircraft (Arrivederci Alitalia etc.) as the people they are aimed at.
Can I also just say, if it needs to be said, that those of us in the driving seat are just as mortified with embarrassment and angered about these daft press releases, court cases, banners painted on our aircraft (Arrivederci Alitalia etc.) as the people they are aimed at.
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Hi Telstar,
Thank you for your cockpit perspective! In understand why your company does file like this: it is to avoid restrictions.
But bare in mind that these restrictions are there for a reason, to protect us controllers from overload situations. If you put on restrictions and you get these Ryanair flights that means that in stead of a traffic count of 15, you get eg 20. Restrictions therefore lose there meaning if one airline tries to cheat it.
In fair honesty, Ryanair does have one big advantage, they are all single type. It makes it easier to put them in trail at FL370, on mach control, 10nm in between.
Thank you for your cockpit perspective! In understand why your company does file like this: it is to avoid restrictions.
But bare in mind that these restrictions are there for a reason, to protect us controllers from overload situations. If you put on restrictions and you get these Ryanair flights that means that in stead of a traffic count of 15, you get eg 20. Restrictions therefore lose there meaning if one airline tries to cheat it.
In fair honesty, Ryanair does have one big advantage, they are all single type. It makes it easier to put them in trail at FL370, on mach control, 10nm in between.
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Yeah, all well and good regarding flight planned levels...maybe one of you RYR chaps can now tell me why your entire fleet is completely incapable of flying ATC assigned speeds on final approach? I won't hold my breath.....
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Fly EBOS
Regulations and flow are there to protect the ATCO - however, if you are overloaded, why accept them into your sector at that level in the first place?
What are your traffic managers doing allowing flights to consistently come in at this level if it is causing a problem?
Yes, airlines file FP's in such a way as to avoid restrictions - it's not just RYR by any means.
When in flight, why should a pilot not ask for higher? If you keep giving them it, it will just encourage them to keep asking.
If you can handle the traffic, then by all means take it on and give the guy climb - but ATCOs can't bleat about being too busy or overloaded if they have allowed the aircraft to climb above its FP level just because the pilot asked.
The 'C' in ATCO stands for 'Control' - maybe ATCOs should control the aircraft instead of letting the traffic control them!!
Regulations and flow are there to protect the ATCO - however, if you are overloaded, why accept them into your sector at that level in the first place?
What are your traffic managers doing allowing flights to consistently come in at this level if it is causing a problem?
Yes, airlines file FP's in such a way as to avoid restrictions - it's not just RYR by any means.
When in flight, why should a pilot not ask for higher? If you keep giving them it, it will just encourage them to keep asking.
If you can handle the traffic, then by all means take it on and give the guy climb - but ATCOs can't bleat about being too busy or overloaded if they have allowed the aircraft to climb above its FP level just because the pilot asked.
The 'C' in ATCO stands for 'Control' - maybe ATCOs should control the aircraft instead of letting the traffic control them!!
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In defence of FLY_EBOS the traffic has probably been climbed by another sector well in advance of the FIR boundary. Even as far back as over Wales if they're coming from DUB. I'd imagine he doesn't have that much of a choice about the level it comes at.
More than just an ATCO
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What are your traffic managers doing allowing flights to consistently come in at this level if it is causing a problem?
the traffic has probably been climbed by another sector well in advance of the FIR boundary.
they have allowed the aircraft to climb above its FP level just because the pilot asked
If you want a laugh, try this "c/s descend to FL230, as requested"
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The traffic managers will more often than not know nothing about the climb as the decision has been made tactically by the ATCO without reference. I can understand why it's done and that's to give the airline the best possible service, but sometimes the bigger picture is admitedly overlooked which can lead to potential problems for other sectors/units. I don't think there are many ATCO's who have not at some time been guilty of this.
There is only one way to ensure that conflicts like this do not arise and that is for pilots to conform to the their filed flight level and ALL ATCO's to do the same. Easier said than done I know !!
I don't believe that Eurocontrol condone or offer advice to this type of action as they are the ones who ultimately have to sort out the problems caused. IFPU/CFMU have their part to play in this and should enforce irregular flight planning more stringently.
There is only one way to ensure that conflicts like this do not arise and that is for pilots to conform to the their filed flight level and ALL ATCO's to do the same. Easier said than done I know !!
I don't believe that Eurocontrol condone or offer advice to this type of action as they are the ones who ultimately have to sort out the problems caused. IFPU/CFMU have their part to play in this and should enforce irregular flight planning more stringently.
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mr.777
A very sweeping statement. Care to be more specific, if we are thinking of the same instances, I have some very precise answers for you!
Yeah, all well and good regarding flight planned levels...maybe one of you RYR chaps can now tell me why your entire fleet is completely incapable of flying ATC assigned speeds on final approach? I won't hold my breath.....
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QWERTY9 et al,
I am well aware that it is in the ATCOs nature to climb aircraft - however it is in the ATCOs interest to control aircraft... if that means that traffic managers from one unit need to start imposing restrictions and telling offering units, then thats what should happen - thats part of what a good traffic manager should do.
Traffic managers form offering sectors then need to pass the message onto the tactical controllers and this needs to happen all the way down th eline - however there is other ways of doing this pre-tactically. It's not a difficult concept, however until ATCOs start to accept a bit of systemisation into their controlling, they are going to continue to continue to be 'overloaded'.
There are ways and means to ensure that specific routes or airlines or city pairs are presented to your sector in a specific manner - it can be done at unit level.
Personaly speaking, I think 'overload' is cried too often by some sectors, especially when upon checking the figures you discover that although they have one figure as a normal operating value, they often actually control 30% or 40% more traffic because they take it on i.e. if they worked the traffic they were meant to they would not be 'overloaded'.
Realistic figures are needed to run a sector correctly, then in conjunction with that aircraft should be controlled in accordance with their Flight Plan - that way aircraft enter the sectors that they are actually targetted for and that the traffic is counted in.
Traffic managers can only work on the figures they have to hand, which are based on flight plans - the FP is then targetetted to the appropriate sectors and the traffic count emerges from that - if controllers continually allow aircraft to differ wildly from their flight plan, then they cannot expect the traffic managers to protect them!
I am well aware that it is in the ATCOs nature to climb aircraft - however it is in the ATCOs interest to control aircraft... if that means that traffic managers from one unit need to start imposing restrictions and telling offering units, then thats what should happen - thats part of what a good traffic manager should do.
Traffic managers form offering sectors then need to pass the message onto the tactical controllers and this needs to happen all the way down th eline - however there is other ways of doing this pre-tactically. It's not a difficult concept, however until ATCOs start to accept a bit of systemisation into their controlling, they are going to continue to continue to be 'overloaded'.
There are ways and means to ensure that specific routes or airlines or city pairs are presented to your sector in a specific manner - it can be done at unit level.
Personaly speaking, I think 'overload' is cried too often by some sectors, especially when upon checking the figures you discover that although they have one figure as a normal operating value, they often actually control 30% or 40% more traffic because they take it on i.e. if they worked the traffic they were meant to they would not be 'overloaded'.
Realistic figures are needed to run a sector correctly, then in conjunction with that aircraft should be controlled in accordance with their Flight Plan - that way aircraft enter the sectors that they are actually targetted for and that the traffic is counted in.
Traffic managers can only work on the figures they have to hand, which are based on flight plans - the FP is then targetetted to the appropriate sectors and the traffic count emerges from that - if controllers continually allow aircraft to differ wildly from their flight plan, then they cannot expect the traffic managers to protect them!
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...And in fact many airlines now take a more enlightened view that staying on the flight plan allows CFMU and local network managers to predict and regulate flow more effectively.
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If any aircraft is climbed above it's FPL level an AFP message should be sent to IFPS. If this was done every time I can assure you that FPRS section at London would be swamped!
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O'Leary has an offer for all Atco giving direct routings and highest levels..
free business class tickets
(in my sector RYR 410 or above!!)
free business class tickets
(in my sector RYR 410 or above!!)
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disturbing
Did you see what he was doing with his pen while he was saying that?
Hope he wasn't acting out some bizarre fantasies.
However, ATCOs don't need free tickets - we'll all be able to afford business class whatever the price, whenever we feel like some action. Because we're all greedy, overpaid, lazy public servants.
Hope he wasn't acting out some bizarre fantasies.
However, ATCOs don't need free tickets - we'll all be able to afford business class whatever the price, whenever we feel like some action. Because we're all greedy, overpaid, lazy public servants.
Maybe we should live up to the portrait painted by a certain Mr O'Brien and do nothing out of the ordinary for his airline. No direct routes, no bending over backwards, no co-ordinating their flights through military airspace. If we are being slated, then we might as well deserve it.
It's already happening.
How many 'toss of a coin' decisions do we make every day about which aircraft to put first? Ryan air always lose out then and will continue to do so as long as their press office and CEO spout such bollox.
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Last Monday 16th I took the Ryanair 1015 dep PK to SS. The flight was showing a 15 minute delay.After boarding the capt Declan ??????? announced that the delay was due to ATC causing the late arrival and Quote " That due to our brilliant ATC system in Scotland the delays would no doubt increase as usual during the day!!! Unquote.......would suggest next time they winge and ask for 31 arrival when 13 is duty RW they are told to **********
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Not infrequently, I've been travelling and the Captain's PA has blamed ATC for a delay - although never with Ryanair, but I avoid them as much as possible. In response, I write a note to him/her asking if I can do anything to help, and include a business card. One more than one occasion the Captain has then come back on the PA and changed the story!
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A few chief executives ago I recall we were asked to report any delays blamed on ATC in order that they might be investigated. Might be time to reinstate that?