Ras,ris & Matz Penetration
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Ras,ris & Matz Penetration
Sorry if this has been beaten to death before but I did a search and couldn't find anything. Here's the scenario, I'm flying outside CAS getting a radar service ie LARS and there is a MATZ ahead which will take me through the zone. What is the correct procedure? Do I request a frequency change to the military to request MATZ penetration and then go back to the unit providing me previously after leaving the zone or will the unit call the military on my behalf to request MATZ penetration. For example, I'm routing CPT to MID getting a (excellent) service from Farnboro' my route takes me through the Odiham zone.
Go easy on me guys, I just want to do the right thing
Go easy on me guys, I just want to do the right thing
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If you're not military you can fly straight through the MATZ without telling anyone or asking for transit. If you ask Farnborough for transit we can approve it but it really isn't legally necessary.
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Matz Crossing
SilentHandover is technically correct about civil ploughing on through a MATZ, however, Good Airmanship and a due regard for your own safety would dictate that you let the Military know when you do require a transit (when the MATZ is active, of course).
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Depends on how high you are and how close you want to get to the military airfield. If you are higher than 3000ft you can go straight over the top without talking to Odiham. However, I would always suggest either asking Farnborough to hand you over or freecall Odiham to request a transit. You never know what else they may have going on. As ATC it gets a bit irritating if unknown traffic gets close! Hope this helps.
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This came up recently at an event I have attended - basic points from the discussions were:
- If with Farnborough - request MATZ penetration (but don't assume you have it until a positive clearance has come back - be aware lots of phonecalls between Farn and Odiham going on to accommodate the crossing!)
- Call in plenty of time, can call Odiham approach direct for crossing
- Always best to be speaking to them as you transit the MATZ due to the profiles of the aircraft flown and possible conflictions.
- If with Farnborough - request MATZ penetration (but don't assume you have it until a positive clearance has come back - be aware lots of phonecalls between Farn and Odiham going on to accommodate the crossing!)
- Call in plenty of time, can call Odiham approach direct for crossing
- Always best to be speaking to them as you transit the MATZ due to the profiles of the aircraft flown and possible conflictions.
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Thinks... I wonder why Odiham ATC is not in the same room as Farnborough ATC? (During 31 years at Heathrow I wondered the same about Northolt).
C'mon Chevvron... where are you T??
C'mon Chevvron... where are you T??
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Whilst we wait for Chevvrons return.
They were until a few years back, then they got their own radar room and split. The approach and director functions were at Farnborough but they got their own radar room I think it was about the time of the relocation to the new tower. I'll leave to Chevvron to explain why it happened as I haven't got a clue.
They were until a few years back, then they got their own radar room and split. The approach and director functions were at Farnborough but they got their own radar room I think it was about the time of the relocation to the new tower. I'll leave to Chevvron to explain why it happened as I haven't got a clue.
Last edited by SilentHandover; 15th Jun 2008 at 07:55. Reason: additional waffle
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Bear in mind that if you elect to cross a MATZ without asking the controlling unit, you must remain clear of the ATZ vertically or horizontally.
If you call and get no response after three tries from a MATZ frequency, you can assume they are not there. You must still remain clear of any ATZ as this may be active.
As others have said, what is legally allowed may not necessarily be good airmanship! (Some danger areas may also be crossed whilst active without using a DACS but it's not a great idea).
Do not assume that a unit providing you with a LARS will necessarily automatically arrange crossing clearance or coordinate with other ATC units. They may be too busy. It is your responsibility to ensure you have any required clearances.
A good example of this is heading SW out of the Odiham MATZ. Often Solent or Farnborough will be too busy and the time between leaving Odiham and approaching the Solent CTR can be quite short!
If you call and get no response after three tries from a MATZ frequency, you can assume they are not there. You must still remain clear of any ATZ as this may be active.
As others have said, what is legally allowed may not necessarily be good airmanship! (Some danger areas may also be crossed whilst active without using a DACS but it's not a great idea).
Do not assume that a unit providing you with a LARS will necessarily automatically arrange crossing clearance or coordinate with other ATC units. They may be too busy. It is your responsibility to ensure you have any required clearances.
A good example of this is heading SW out of the Odiham MATZ. Often Solent or Farnborough will be too busy and the time between leaving Odiham and approaching the Solent CTR can be quite short!
Perchance I could help before Chevron arrives? FBO can authorise a MATZ crossing of the Odiham MATZ and if necessary will talk to Odiham. They cannot off their own backs authorise an ATZ crossing. Point to beware of, the Odiham ATZ is active 2000ft AGL, so flying at 2000ft on QNH will put you roughly 500ft into the Odiham ATZ!
Can't help but underline what walesjr has said - especially given the congested and compressed airspace down there. Although you can, please don't plough through without speaking to anyone, it's not very helpful and might save you the hassle of being run over by a wokka wokka. Although you can hear them coming from miles away (even when in a cockpit) it still might ruin your day.
FBO is the LARS provider in the area but can get VERY busy, if you can't get through just call Odiham instead.
As far as the history is concerned, Odiham had their own radar put in in about 2001, moving the App/Dir task from FBO. Originally the idea was to put the FBO controller at Odiham like we did at Colt with the Norwich controller, but that fell through. I believe it was something to do with NATS not wanting to put their controllers there but that might be a load of bolleaux. Shame really, the Colt/Norwich set-up worked really well and would be VERY useful for FBO/Odiham.
Can't help but underline what walesjr has said - especially given the congested and compressed airspace down there. Although you can, please don't plough through without speaking to anyone, it's not very helpful and might save you the hassle of being run over by a wokka wokka. Although you can hear them coming from miles away (even when in a cockpit) it still might ruin your day.
FBO is the LARS provider in the area but can get VERY busy, if you can't get through just call Odiham instead.
As far as the history is concerned, Odiham had their own radar put in in about 2001, moving the App/Dir task from FBO. Originally the idea was to put the FBO controller at Odiham like we did at Colt with the Norwich controller, but that fell through. I believe it was something to do with NATS not wanting to put their controllers there but that might be a load of bolleaux. Shame really, the Colt/Norwich set-up worked really well and would be VERY useful for FBO/Odiham.
Nearly right.
Back in late '74, the Odiham AR1 was moved to Malta in order to cover the British withdrawl required by Dom Mintoff. This left Odiham without primary radar, so Odiham radar controllers occupied one console at Farnborough to cover the task. Then the RAF personnel people asked why they had radar controllers posted to Odiham when there was no radar there, so Farnborough (NATS) controllers took over the Odiham task enabling staff at Odiham to be reduced. About 20 years later, staff reductions at Farnborough (political) meant reduced services to Odiham traffic, so they began sending controllers into Farnborough again to cover the task. Meantime MOD/DPA had decided to 'give up' Farnborough and their successors, DRA, decided they were in the business of aviation research, not running airports, so the RAF decided to install a radar at Odiham again. TAG Aviation were offered two consoles at Odiham which the then Airport Director initially accepted; but this was before he had seen a Farnborough Airshow. So after the '2000 airshow, the decision to move to Odiham was reversed and the RAF were offered the facility to stay at Farnborough in the new tower with its new generation facilities; but the RAF felt they were committed so the offer was declined in spite of Farnborough be getting more up to date equipment than the RAF procurement programme. I haven't visited Odiham recently, but I know the two 'Farnborough' consoles were installed and never used; may even still be there, but they're 'old' cathode ray tube raster scan consoles rather than the TFT displays installed at Farnborough, hence they were out of date almost from the day they were installed!
I agree it would make much smoother airspace management in the area to have it all done from one room, but with the 'axe' threated at Odiham any time in the next 10 years, is it worth the trouble of changing again? It might be as this would allow a slow rundown and re-deployment of staff and equipment from Odiham, but that's too logical isn't it?
Back in late '74, the Odiham AR1 was moved to Malta in order to cover the British withdrawl required by Dom Mintoff. This left Odiham without primary radar, so Odiham radar controllers occupied one console at Farnborough to cover the task. Then the RAF personnel people asked why they had radar controllers posted to Odiham when there was no radar there, so Farnborough (NATS) controllers took over the Odiham task enabling staff at Odiham to be reduced. About 20 years later, staff reductions at Farnborough (political) meant reduced services to Odiham traffic, so they began sending controllers into Farnborough again to cover the task. Meantime MOD/DPA had decided to 'give up' Farnborough and their successors, DRA, decided they were in the business of aviation research, not running airports, so the RAF decided to install a radar at Odiham again. TAG Aviation were offered two consoles at Odiham which the then Airport Director initially accepted; but this was before he had seen a Farnborough Airshow. So after the '2000 airshow, the decision to move to Odiham was reversed and the RAF were offered the facility to stay at Farnborough in the new tower with its new generation facilities; but the RAF felt they were committed so the offer was declined in spite of Farnborough be getting more up to date equipment than the RAF procurement programme. I haven't visited Odiham recently, but I know the two 'Farnborough' consoles were installed and never used; may even still be there, but they're 'old' cathode ray tube raster scan consoles rather than the TFT displays installed at Farnborough, hence they were out of date almost from the day they were installed!
I agree it would make much smoother airspace management in the area to have it all done from one room, but with the 'axe' threated at Odiham any time in the next 10 years, is it worth the trouble of changing again? It might be as this would allow a slow rundown and re-deployment of staff and equipment from Odiham, but that's too logical isn't it?
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They're not raster scan any more. There some sort of computer monitor with colour graphics (sorry, I'm not a techie type so can't be more specific). Regardless, despite the politics it just makes sense to have a collocated radar set-up when two airfields are so close. On the other hand, since when has common sense applied in aviation?
