Lorel/Abbot holding
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lorel/Abbot holding
Flying into Luton from the south, we are descended over London towards Brookmans Park and Barkway and then handed over to Essex Radar. I realise that you deal with a lot of flights and you do a great job.
However, I do have a question regarding the routings we get given once we get handed over. Frequently we hear something along the lines of "No delay for Luton. Turn right heading 040" or something similar to find ourselves being vectored over Hertfordshire/Essex for 5-10 minutes at 220kts/5000' before being vectored towards a base leg for Luton. As we have heard no delay, and we're not being sent to the hold, we think that we're getting sent towards a base leg sharpish and hence the speedbrakes come out and we're down to 5000' quick with the speed coming back. My query/point is, for us, in terms of CDA's and fuel planning, it is more useful (or at least it would be for me) if we are sent to the hold at Lorel and told how long we will be there, or at least be told that we are being put on delaying vectors.
Is it because with the increased traffic going into STN and LTN that there just isn't space for LTN aircraft in the holds?
Please understand that I'm just trying to get a feel for how you guys operate so that I/we have a better idea of what to expect when we get into your sector. Obviously your picture is changing constantly with aircraft turning up at unexpected times - my query is merely borne out of professional curiosity.
However, I do have a question regarding the routings we get given once we get handed over. Frequently we hear something along the lines of "No delay for Luton. Turn right heading 040" or something similar to find ourselves being vectored over Hertfordshire/Essex for 5-10 minutes at 220kts/5000' before being vectored towards a base leg for Luton. As we have heard no delay, and we're not being sent to the hold, we think that we're getting sent towards a base leg sharpish and hence the speedbrakes come out and we're down to 5000' quick with the speed coming back. My query/point is, for us, in terms of CDA's and fuel planning, it is more useful (or at least it would be for me) if we are sent to the hold at Lorel and told how long we will be there, or at least be told that we are being put on delaying vectors.
Is it because with the increased traffic going into STN and LTN that there just isn't space for LTN aircraft in the holds?
Please understand that I'm just trying to get a feel for how you guys operate so that I/we have a better idea of what to expect when we get into your sector. Obviously your picture is changing constantly with aircraft turning up at unexpected times - my query is merely borne out of professional curiosity.
Spink Pots
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Up in the air
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I assume this happened this afternoon?. The reason that all the Luton arrivals were removed from the stack was to make room for all the Stansted inbounds. There was a very busy rush this afternoon/evening when everything arrived from the south at the one time and there was pressure on Essex Radar to clear the LOREL hold to prevent aircraft holding right out over the south coast.
If you weren't referring to this afternoon/evening then I suspect the situation may have been similar.
It seems to be normal procedure to vector the GW traffic around the back of the LOREL hold (to the north) to give it enough track miles to lose the height and to get it out of the way of the CPT and BUZAD departures from SS.
I say "It seems" because I'm not an Essex controller however I do the north bank which deals with all LOREL inbounds before transferring to Essex.
I hope that helps somewhat.
If you weren't referring to this afternoon/evening then I suspect the situation may have been similar.
It seems to be normal procedure to vector the GW traffic around the back of the LOREL hold (to the north) to give it enough track miles to lose the height and to get it out of the way of the CPT and BUZAD departures from SS.
I say "It seems" because I'm not an Essex controller however I do the north bank which deals with all LOREL inbounds before transferring to Essex.
I hope that helps somewhat.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with all the above.
I deal with the Capital sector which takes you from Avant or May to BPK. I won't add too much apart from the 5000' bit is a symptom of how the TMA has expanded and routes and airfields have grown around Heathrow. The relatively long period at 5000' on the 'full route' is the only way to safely incorporate the Luton traffic through the rather complex airspace(!)
This ends at 'gate' through which all the standard routed arrivals are fed to Luton APC.
I deal with the Capital sector which takes you from Avant or May to BPK. I won't add too much apart from the 5000' bit is a symptom of how the TMA has expanded and routes and airfields have grown around Heathrow. The relatively long period at 5000' on the 'full route' is the only way to safely incorporate the Luton traffic through the rather complex airspace(!)
This ends at 'gate' through which all the standard routed arrivals are fed to Luton APC.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Higher Voltage
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The main reason for the vectoring is airspace restrictions, not delaying tactics. If there was a delay for GW you'd be in the hold. However, there may be SS traffic in the hold below you at Lorel. The only place to get through the Lorel stack is over to the NE. Heading 040 would also get an early cross with SS departures and earlier descent. This is all for expedition and as previously mentioned not needlessly taking up a place in the hold.
The phrase no delay means that you are not going in the hold, but you still have to be vectored clear of Lorel stack and SS departures for descent. I know it may seem odd that initially you are being vectored away from GW but honestly this is to jump the queue for SS and get you in quicker.
Also, there are level restrictions to be met for the handover to GW. So, even if SS is not busy the track miles may be required to lose the height and meet the restrictions.
If you wished to come down one evening I'm sure most Essex controllers would be happy to let you listen in, it's also easier to explain when you can point at maps !
Hope that all makes sense
The phrase no delay means that you are not going in the hold, but you still have to be vectored clear of Lorel stack and SS departures for descent. I know it may seem odd that initially you are being vectored away from GW but honestly this is to jump the queue for SS and get you in quicker.
Also, there are level restrictions to be met for the handover to GW. So, even if SS is not busy the track miles may be required to lose the height and meet the restrictions.
If you wished to come down one evening I'm sure most Essex controllers would be happy to let you listen in, it's also easier to explain when you can point at maps !
Hope that all makes sense
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Age: 45
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are three main reasons why you will be given a heading of 040.
1/ To vector you away from the LOREL Hold so as to descend you and then as soon as you are below the Hold you are turned west again to put you through the "Luton Gate"
2/ Vectors to fit you into the sequence of Luton traffic coming from the east via Abbot
3/ Luton Tower requiring large gaps and therefore we have to put the luton traffic further apart through the Luton Gate (it's a normally 6 miles in trail but can increase to 12+). To save the hold filling up we vector you out to the east and then back again. Keeps all the traffic moving.
Hope this helps
Vortex Issues
NOTE : The luton Gate is defined as a line from LOREL (N520051 W0000309) to (N520607 W0000309) the boundary between LTMA 4500ft and LTMA 5500ft.
1/ To vector you away from the LOREL Hold so as to descend you and then as soon as you are below the Hold you are turned west again to put you through the "Luton Gate"
2/ Vectors to fit you into the sequence of Luton traffic coming from the east via Abbot
3/ Luton Tower requiring large gaps and therefore we have to put the luton traffic further apart through the Luton Gate (it's a normally 6 miles in trail but can increase to 12+). To save the hold filling up we vector you out to the east and then back again. Keeps all the traffic moving.
Hope this helps
Vortex Issues
NOTE : The luton Gate is defined as a line from LOREL (N520051 W0000309) to (N520607 W0000309) the boundary between LTMA 4500ft and LTMA 5500ft.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks very much for the replies. I had half expected there was a 'gate' of some sort that we have to pass before we get handed over to Luton. I don't have the charts to hand, but I'll have to look it up next time I'm at work - as you say, it's much easier when you're looking at maps....
