Speed Limits on a STAR
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Speed Limits on a STAR
Nothing to do with the new "270kts in the descent" marvel...... 
I was inbound to LGW the other week, given a GWC arrival with the no speed control by the first controller and the usual "be FL130 by GWC" restriction. So far so good. On handover to the next controller before reaching GWC, I told him we were "high speed", he then asked us for "standard speed", gave us a heading and descended us to FL120. I took this to mean that now I was no longer flying the STAR, the STAR speed restriction (250kts by GWC) no longer applied and I now had to abide by the 250kts at FL100 restriction.
I was contemplating the above at 310kts towards HOLLY when the controller asked me my speed and suggested I should have slowed to 250kts at GWC.
What does the panel think?
I was inbound to LGW the other week, given a GWC arrival with the no speed control by the first controller and the usual "be FL130 by GWC" restriction. So far so good. On handover to the next controller before reaching GWC, I told him we were "high speed", he then asked us for "standard speed", gave us a heading and descended us to FL120. I took this to mean that now I was no longer flying the STAR, the STAR speed restriction (250kts by GWC) no longer applied and I now had to abide by the 250kts at FL100 restriction.
I was contemplating the above at 310kts towards HOLLY when the controller asked me my speed and suggested I should have slowed to 250kts at GWC.
What does the panel think?
Last edited by Human Factor; 1st Jun 2008 at 19:23.
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Hello Human!
I'd agree with the above I'm afraid. If I ask an a/c to fly at standard speeds on a STAR I would be expecting 250kts at (or abeam) the SLP too.
As you may well have heard, even though you are given a standard routing/speed profile according to the STAR just about every (& I mean every) a/c will ask "Do you want 250kts ay GWC" despite this being part of the STAR clearance so many controllers now say "Standard speed" with your first call.
Most of the time this is little or no issue (although usually you will be told "no Speed restriction" if the SLP is NOT needed). Just as an aside give it a moments thought if the frequency is very busy though. The fail safe is to follow the SLP unless you've previously been assigned a specific speed to fly so please save the RT time (it all adds up!) and just slow down.
Apologies if this comes across as a rant, that's certainly not the intention! Just trying to help you empathise our situation. Better still, come down to the seaside for a visit!
I'd agree with the above I'm afraid. If I ask an a/c to fly at standard speeds on a STAR I would be expecting 250kts at (or abeam) the SLP too.
As you may well have heard, even though you are given a standard routing/speed profile according to the STAR just about every (& I mean every) a/c will ask "Do you want 250kts ay GWC" despite this being part of the STAR clearance so many controllers now say "Standard speed" with your first call.
Most of the time this is little or no issue (although usually you will be told "no Speed restriction" if the SLP is NOT needed). Just as an aside give it a moments thought if the frequency is very busy though. The fail safe is to follow the SLP unless you've previously been assigned a specific speed to fly so please save the RT time (it all adds up!) and just slow down.
Apologies if this comes across as a rant, that's certainly not the intention! Just trying to help you empathise our situation. Better still, come down to the seaside for a visit!
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I concur with the two posts above. Standard speeds will normally mean it is not exactly quiet! Therefore having someone blast in at 310kts is one way of pissing off the controller. It may appear to be a vague area but I suppose it really comes down to common sense at the end of the day as to how crews should be operating their aircraft.
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To me something like "standard speed" is very ambiguous and open to interpretation. Especially above 10,000 where standard can mean as low as 200 knots or 300 knots plus. Also, he didn't give you a specific speed to fly I have to agree with you especially since you were pulled off the STAR.
However in general the SLP is x distance from some VOR/airport/whatever so I'd say at the very least be at speed by then. Safe skies buddy!
However in general the SLP is x distance from some VOR/airport/whatever so I'd say at the very least be at speed by then. Safe skies buddy!
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As a controller, I figure he meant for you to fly the standard STAR speeds, but, like yourself, I'm somewhat guessing at the interpretation.
Perhaps "fly STAR speeds" would have been a bit more clear.
I have changed my phraseology at times if I came across an instance where I felt the pilot could (or did) 'reasonably' misinterpret my instructions. (That can happen quite easily here in the sandpit where English is the third or fourth language for many pilots.)
Perhaps "fly STAR speeds" would have been a bit more clear.
I have changed my phraseology at times if I came across an instance where I felt the pilot could (or did) 'reasonably' misinterpret my instructions. (That can happen quite easily here in the sandpit where English is the third or fourth language for many pilots.)
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The star hasn't been cancelled so I assume that you will be placed back on it at some point, however while you are not flying via the star (ie being vectored) I think ATC should issue any speed or height requirements or restrictions.
If you aren't flying via the star i don't see how you can be expected to know what restrictions apply.
If you aren't flying via the star i don't see how you can be expected to know what restrictions apply.
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Human Factor
I'm afraid you've been caught in the modern London ACC Swanwick crap phraseology "get-paid-by-the-word" mentality. The phrase you quote is meaningless and could so easily have been replaced with an unambiguous instruction which was clear and precise.
The use use of this phrase has been mentioned before, together with "best rate" rather than "expedite". Best rate could be interpretted as the rate most convenient or economical to the pilot/aircraft....and so I suggest could "standard speed".
You might have a good case for maintaining high speed on the grounds that the instruction to fly "standard speed" entitled you to ignore the laid down SLP limitation.
At the moment Mode S lets the controller "see" into your flight deck.....the next stage developement lets the controller [who has absolutely no qualifications to fly your aeroplane] input speed instructions directly into the FMS. Don't worry...it will be a few years away.
The use use of this phrase has been mentioned before, together with "best rate" rather than "expedite". Best rate could be interpretted as the rate most convenient or economical to the pilot/aircraft....and so I suggest could "standard speed".
You might have a good case for maintaining high speed on the grounds that the instruction to fly "standard speed" entitled you to ignore the laid down SLP limitation.
At the moment Mode S lets the controller "see" into your flight deck.....the next stage developement lets the controller [who has absolutely no qualifications to fly your aeroplane] input speed instructions directly into the FMS. Don't worry...it will be a few years away.
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Hmm 055,
I fully agree that there's an increase in verbose and unnecessary RT, and a few individuals immediately come to mind - you know who you are! This is without doubt something that will need addressing as the RT comes under even more pressure.
But although I fully accept that it doesn't appear in the CAP or MATS1, this "Standard speeds" or my preferred "Standard speeds at the Speed Limit Point" SAVES RT without a doubt.
I can't remember the last time it's meaning was questioned by a UK or indeed European/American pilot. Given that if we don't say anything almost all would ask later if they could maintain high speed (now that's not in there either) or if the SLP applies, our response followed by their readback would increase RT even more. It's also a damn sight easier and less convoluted than "IAS 2-5-0 knots or less 1-2 miles before OCKham!". When I have used this phrase, usually for foreign/non English speaking pilots they usually need it a second time!
We've tried not saying anything too and often this results in the subject a/c tearing past the SLP and reaching the holding point at 300kts!!
I'd be interested to hear what others think?? I have been wrong you know!
I fully agree that there's an increase in verbose and unnecessary RT, and a few individuals immediately come to mind - you know who you are! This is without doubt something that will need addressing as the RT comes under even more pressure.
But although I fully accept that it doesn't appear in the CAP or MATS1, this "Standard speeds" or my preferred "Standard speeds at the Speed Limit Point" SAVES RT without a doubt.
I can't remember the last time it's meaning was questioned by a UK or indeed European/American pilot. Given that if we don't say anything almost all would ask later if they could maintain high speed (now that's not in there either) or if the SLP applies, our response followed by their readback would increase RT even more. It's also a damn sight easier and less convoluted than "IAS 2-5-0 knots or less 1-2 miles before OCKham!". When I have used this phrase, usually for foreign/non English speaking pilots they usually need it a second time!
We've tried not saying anything too and often this results in the subject a/c tearing past the SLP and reaching the holding point at 300kts!!
I'd be interested to hear what others think?? I have been wrong you know!
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I don't really see this as 'being taken off the STAR' - you haven't diverted anywhere so you'll be back on your own nav soon enough unless you've been given a straight in.
Fam visits could sort all this out in a jiffy really. Inbound through GWC there's two stories to tell. It's standard speeds on the arrival to keep your place in the queue but ensure you're ready for any holding (rather than 220kts for a longer delay) but the vectors to get another (usuallu outbound) aircraft through you - of which there are plenty.
I agree that phraseology will always be a bugbear: both too verbose and also oblique but inbound to the TMA you surely must know that standard speeds refers to the SLP's.
So in short for my two-penneth - aye, on vectors standard is abeam the SLP.
Fam visits could sort all this out in a jiffy really. Inbound through GWC there's two stories to tell. It's standard speeds on the arrival to keep your place in the queue but ensure you're ready for any holding (rather than 220kts for a longer delay) but the vectors to get another (usuallu outbound) aircraft through you - of which there are plenty.
I agree that phraseology will always be a bugbear: both too verbose and also oblique but inbound to the TMA you surely must know that standard speeds refers to the SLP's.
So in short for my two-penneth - aye, on vectors standard is abeam the SLP.
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I don't respond to one-post wonders who hide behind a veil of anonymity[Musk], but Cartman certainly has street cred.
Point well made.....and accepted!
I've got a suggestion if you want to go for the "i-POD". We are all familiar with ATIS, Volmet, etc. It's about time we had an Area/TMA version that could include a range of information and instructions.....and especially the need or otherwise of the adherence to SLP's. There could be an opportunity to reduce the repetitive gobbledygook that blocks the airwaves and thereby leave a bit of space for executive instructions.
How's the trial of a/c stating expected STAR on first call going? The requirement to state that could be a Terminal ATIS item.
[On the Area side, unfortunately, some of my colleagues have found extra R/T crap to fill the newly available 3 second gap...notably a direct route of one degree heading change which then deletes all intermediate waypoints...this results in a vomit-inducing descent target of 95 miles before BEDEK....makes me want to throw up]]
Point well made.....and accepted!
I've got a suggestion if you want to go for the "i-POD". We are all familiar with ATIS, Volmet, etc. It's about time we had an Area/TMA version that could include a range of information and instructions.....and especially the need or otherwise of the adherence to SLP's. There could be an opportunity to reduce the repetitive gobbledygook that blocks the airwaves and thereby leave a bit of space for executive instructions.
How's the trial of a/c stating expected STAR on first call going? The requirement to state that could be a Terminal ATIS item.
[On the Area side, unfortunately, some of my colleagues have found extra R/T crap to fill the newly available 3 second gap...notably a direct route of one degree heading change which then deletes all intermediate waypoints...this results in a vomit-inducing descent target of 95 miles before BEDEK....makes me want to throw up]]
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Thanks for the replies, folks. A couple of learning points on each side, I think.
For me, I'll plan to be at the appropriate speed based on the STAR speed limit point in future, unless I'm given either "No speed restriction" or a specific speed.
For the ATCOs, instead of saying "standard speed" when you give someone a heading (which could mean a multitude of things), perhaps say "standard speed at the speed limit point", which is unambiguous.
For me, I'll plan to be at the appropriate speed based on the STAR speed limit point in future, unless I'm given either "No speed restriction" or a specific speed.
For the ATCOs, instead of saying "standard speed" when you give someone a heading (which could mean a multitude of things), perhaps say "standard speed at the speed limit point", which is unambiguous.
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055
Just exactly how would you implement
??
Would you have pilots listen to STAR instructions for every airport, just to get the one they need, or are you advocating a seperate frequency for every STAR arrival? We can't get an extra one or 2 frequencies that we need at the moment for controlling, never mind for admin.
Who will be responsible for updating any STAR information? The requirement for aircraft to fly at standard, slow or high speeds changes by the minute depending on the traffic situation - it's hard enough getting Traffic Managers to display the correct delay information in a timely manner!
Why de so dismissive of TimeToMuskUp? Just because it is their first post, doesn't mean they have nothing valid to say - even you had a first post at some point!
For any pilots reading this, please accept apologies for what seems to be an inefficient system (because it is at times) - you will often be told to maintain high speed until you are level, then told to reduce to holding speed - otherwise you will either loose your place in the queue so have to hold for longer, or you will cause no end of problems and airproxs because a clump of you will arrive at the same place at the same time and level.
Not efficient by any means but the best that can happen in the airspace... the way to fix it will be for all the airline bosses to sit down and agree to coordinate flights so they don't all try to go to the same place at the same time - never going to happen due to customer requirements!!
Just exactly how would you implement
We are all familiar with ATIS, Volmet, etc. It's about time we had an Area/TMA version that could include a range of information and instructions.....and especially the need or otherwise of the adherence to SLP's.
Would you have pilots listen to STAR instructions for every airport, just to get the one they need, or are you advocating a seperate frequency for every STAR arrival? We can't get an extra one or 2 frequencies that we need at the moment for controlling, never mind for admin.
Who will be responsible for updating any STAR information? The requirement for aircraft to fly at standard, slow or high speeds changes by the minute depending on the traffic situation - it's hard enough getting Traffic Managers to display the correct delay information in a timely manner!
Why de so dismissive of TimeToMuskUp? Just because it is their first post, doesn't mean they have nothing valid to say - even you had a first post at some point!
For any pilots reading this, please accept apologies for what seems to be an inefficient system (because it is at times) - you will often be told to maintain high speed until you are level, then told to reduce to holding speed - otherwise you will either loose your place in the queue so have to hold for longer, or you will cause no end of problems and airproxs because a clump of you will arrive at the same place at the same time and level.
Not efficient by any means but the best that can happen in the airspace... the way to fix it will be for all the airline bosses to sit down and agree to coordinate flights so they don't all try to go to the same place at the same time - never going to happen due to customer requirements!!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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We are all familiar with ATIS, Volmet, etc. It's about time we had an Area/TMA version that could include a range of information and instructions.....and especially the need or otherwise of the adherence to SLP's.
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UK practice is not universal, other states make better use of existing resources. Don't give me reasons not to do something...give me solutions. Don't think in the box....we already use selected VOR's for ATIS...expand on that....consider existing and under-utilised resources. My 5 second response would be to use en-route VOR voice broadcast where these are not already used. e.g. From the West...STU, possibly CPT for terminal information.
For a more detailed, costed and complete solution I would need a few days to research and prepare.
P.S. some states transmit on a VOR voice channel in the event of an aircraft R/T failure.
For a more detailed, costed and complete solution I would need a few days to research and prepare.
P.S. some states transmit on a VOR voice channel in the event of an aircraft R/T failure.
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055,
The point is that the speed requirements for individual STARS changes constantly and frequently. There is no mileage in trying to promulgate a message for something so dynamic.
We have aircaft blatting into the TMA at 270Kts or even greater for EGLL when the delay is advertised as 15-20 mins - if ATCOs can't even use common sense to sort that out, then a blanket restriction via an ATIS type transmission will cause even more problems.
We've got the 270Kts trial at the moment which is causing some ATCOs to become even more lazy by just using that speed regardless of the traffic situation and letting other colleagues pick up the pieces.
Less restrictive measures are what is needed, and a return to intelligent controlling for many ATCOs, where they actually use their brain instead of doing things by numbers!!
The point is that the speed requirements for individual STARS changes constantly and frequently. There is no mileage in trying to promulgate a message for something so dynamic.
We have aircaft blatting into the TMA at 270Kts or even greater for EGLL when the delay is advertised as 15-20 mins - if ATCOs can't even use common sense to sort that out, then a blanket restriction via an ATIS type transmission will cause even more problems.
We've got the 270Kts trial at the moment which is causing some ATCOs to become even more lazy by just using that speed regardless of the traffic situation and letting other colleagues pick up the pieces.
Less restrictive measures are what is needed, and a return to intelligent controlling for many ATCOs, where they actually use their brain instead of doing things by numbers!!
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anotherthing
Completely accept your points...well put! If I can do my job the way I've been doing it for quarter of a century without office-numpty interference I'll be a happy bunny.
In Area Control at LACC Swanwick the first we know is when the "blank" EAT display [which just says--less than 20 minutes] suddenly explodes in red +20 values. We can't normally see the stacks because we only have one display set for optimum sector operation, and stack entry from other sectors is background only.
Could a solution be to display all EAT's continuously for tactical awareness....I vote that you win the next iPod if you can swing it!
In Area Control at LACC Swanwick the first we know is when the "blank" EAT display [which just says--less than 20 minutes] suddenly explodes in red +20 values. We can't normally see the stacks because we only have one display set for optimum sector operation, and stack entry from other sectors is background only.
Could a solution be to display all EAT's continuously for tactical awareness....I vote that you win the next iPod if you can swing it!
