Radar Resolution
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Not a wind up.
The class D edging round and MATZs penetrations without radio were purely because the (last) club glider available has a U/S radio. Had I had a radio, I would have called the Class D controller to let him know I was routing round the edge, and I would actually have called to "request permission" to penetrate the MATZ, and have gone round had such "permission" been refused.
We also knew that particular danger area was inactive on the day. Certainly I won't even go close to the likes of the Salisbury range - I can see the craters just as well as everyone else!
The point I was trying to make, not picking on specifics, is that lots of people (not just glider pilots) DO go close to the limits, and that's something we need to acknowledge. If you have a choice of landing in a field, or clipping through the corner of a MATZ for 30 seconds, it can be a very tempting option to do the latter.
The class D edging round and MATZs penetrations without radio were purely because the (last) club glider available has a U/S radio. Had I had a radio, I would have called the Class D controller to let him know I was routing round the edge, and I would actually have called to "request permission" to penetrate the MATZ, and have gone round had such "permission" been refused.
We also knew that particular danger area was inactive on the day. Certainly I won't even go close to the likes of the Salisbury range - I can see the craters just as well as everyone else!
The point I was trying to make, not picking on specifics, is that lots of people (not just glider pilots) DO go close to the limits, and that's something we need to acknowledge. If you have a choice of landing in a field, or clipping through the corner of a MATZ for 30 seconds, it can be a very tempting option to do the latter.
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grob103... Then someone who does that is a bad airman. It's the pilots who need to acknowledge that such things happen. Radar controllers have known it for a very, very long time.
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HD. OK, we are drifting a bit off thread here but...
I consider myself a highly responsible pilot.... Is it wrong that I regularly track down the outside of the Southampton Class D less than half a mile clear based on reference to GPS and cross-checked with ground features that I have carefully plotted on a 1:50,000 OS map? I also have a pre-planned turn left/right to remain clear if I become distracted or disorientated in some way.
We now have designated airspace inside the Class D for use by a couple of Strips located there and have been specifically requested not to contact Southampton when using this airspace in order to reduce radio chatter...
I consider myself a highly responsible pilot.... Is it wrong that I regularly track down the outside of the Southampton Class D less than half a mile clear based on reference to GPS and cross-checked with ground features that I have carefully plotted on a 1:50,000 OS map? I also have a pre-planned turn left/right to remain clear if I become distracted or disorientated in some way.
We now have designated airspace inside the Class D for use by a couple of Strips located there and have been specifically requested not to contact Southampton when using this airspace in order to reduce radio chatter...
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Nipper2
what you state sounds sensible to me - you are at least backing up your GPS with mapwork and good old planning. You also have get out plans which is sensible.
What is rather silly is what Grob3 states in his/her first post (I take back what I said about the DA as he/she read a NOTAM).
When flying, particularly when in an unpowered craft, it is not big nor clever so 'sail so close to the wind' as it were - where is the get out option there?
Too many people get their PPL out of the way then let GPS do the work - it's as easy to get a PPL as it is to get a driving licence nowaday - nothing can beat proper planning... surely thats part of the fun? Good planning followed by as near perfect execution of that plan... that's surely a big sense of achievement?
Going through a MATZ panhandle is not ideal - how many civvy pilots understand the different types of join that military fast jets do? Looking up the approach lane of a MATZ is not sufficiently good airmanship - what about High and Low key? 1 in 1s? Run and breaks etc etc?
I suppose it is up to the military pilot (as he has an engine) to do late avoiding action?
AAIB reports are littered with mil/GA encounters - most are genuine bad luck - why invite disaster?
what you state sounds sensible to me - you are at least backing up your GPS with mapwork and good old planning. You also have get out plans which is sensible.
What is rather silly is what Grob3 states in his/her first post (I take back what I said about the DA as he/she read a NOTAM).
When flying, particularly when in an unpowered craft, it is not big nor clever so 'sail so close to the wind' as it were - where is the get out option there?
Too many people get their PPL out of the way then let GPS do the work - it's as easy to get a PPL as it is to get a driving licence nowaday - nothing can beat proper planning... surely thats part of the fun? Good planning followed by as near perfect execution of that plan... that's surely a big sense of achievement?
Going through a MATZ panhandle is not ideal - how many civvy pilots understand the different types of join that military fast jets do? Looking up the approach lane of a MATZ is not sufficiently good airmanship - what about High and Low key? 1 in 1s? Run and breaks etc etc?
I suppose it is up to the military pilot (as he has an engine) to do late avoiding action?
AAIB reports are littered with mil/GA encounters - most are genuine bad luck - why invite disaster?
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HD: I find it difficult to disagree with your opinion; I'm not trying to make myself or other pilots look good, just be honest about what I do when I'm trying to get from point A to point B quickly or with marginal height.
Nipper: Funnily enough, that's the same Class D airspace I'm referring to. In a number of places tracking east or west, I think you'd struggle to be more than a mile from both the Class D or a MATZ at the same time. I've certainly had to exit thermals as the wind drifts me uncomfortably close to airspace.
Nipper: Funnily enough, that's the same Class D airspace I'm referring to. In a number of places tracking east or west, I think you'd struggle to be more than a mile from both the Class D or a MATZ at the same time. I've certainly had to exit thermals as the wind drifts me uncomfortably close to airspace.
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Wow, busy thread.
Anotherthing: I should have stated that I had a (marked up) map with me. It's mandatory for flights more than 5km from the a/f I believe, and I'm familiar with the ground positions of the airspace edges.
I'd also planned and pre-declared my route; you'd be suprised how important this is to a glider pilot - we don't really have the option of circling or going straight on indefinately while we figure out where we are. I suspect being at 3-5kft makes visual nav a bit easier though - I can't remember the last time I saw a powered type above 3kft.
As a backup, my PDA makes a bloody loud noise and pops up a box when I get within 1km or 500ft of airspace, and an even more annoying one at 500m/250ft. It does this with a 15 second lookahead based on track+climb/descent rate, and gives me a nice "below/above/near Class A FL55+" type description.
Get out option in the Southampton case was "turn right", as I was at 4 or 5 thousand feet and cruising west. That had the handy option of also being in compliance with the "oh my god, someone's coming straight at me" collision avoidance convention. I've got over 20 minutes at that height before I need to start even looking for a field.
Agree that going through the MATZ is not ideal - I'd normally call if my radio was working.
Finally, perhaps being slightly arrogant here, but I think the standard of lookout amongst glider pilots is excellent by GA standards. I doubt it's up to mil standards (no-one's actively trying to kill us), but we're taught (and reminded constantly) to be scanning all the time. Gliders are bloody hard to see, and we do tend to cluster around.
With regards to military circuits/manoeuvres, I don't know enough about this. Can you point me to a site/book/publication where I could learn a bit about this? It'd be tremendously useful to know the "likely" places to look, even if I'm not going over/though a MATZ. Boscombe looks pretty quiet most days; I'm hoping this is because it only has a few flights per hour, rather than because I'm missing a movement every minute. Having had to initiate avoiding action at least twice that I can remember now, and being scared sh*tless as a result on one occasion (to the point of being sick in flight), I certainly don't want to do that to someone else.
Cheers,
grob103
Edited to replace "turn north" with "turn right" (which was north in the particular case
)
Anotherthing: I should have stated that I had a (marked up) map with me. It's mandatory for flights more than 5km from the a/f I believe, and I'm familiar with the ground positions of the airspace edges.
I'd also planned and pre-declared my route; you'd be suprised how important this is to a glider pilot - we don't really have the option of circling or going straight on indefinately while we figure out where we are. I suspect being at 3-5kft makes visual nav a bit easier though - I can't remember the last time I saw a powered type above 3kft.
As a backup, my PDA makes a bloody loud noise and pops up a box when I get within 1km or 500ft of airspace, and an even more annoying one at 500m/250ft. It does this with a 15 second lookahead based on track+climb/descent rate, and gives me a nice "below/above/near Class A FL55+" type description.
Get out option in the Southampton case was "turn right", as I was at 4 or 5 thousand feet and cruising west. That had the handy option of also being in compliance with the "oh my god, someone's coming straight at me" collision avoidance convention. I've got over 20 minutes at that height before I need to start even looking for a field.
Agree that going through the MATZ is not ideal - I'd normally call if my radio was working.
Finally, perhaps being slightly arrogant here, but I think the standard of lookout amongst glider pilots is excellent by GA standards. I doubt it's up to mil standards (no-one's actively trying to kill us), but we're taught (and reminded constantly) to be scanning all the time. Gliders are bloody hard to see, and we do tend to cluster around.
With regards to military circuits/manoeuvres, I don't know enough about this. Can you point me to a site/book/publication where I could learn a bit about this? It'd be tremendously useful to know the "likely" places to look, even if I'm not going over/though a MATZ. Boscombe looks pretty quiet most days; I'm hoping this is because it only has a few flights per hour, rather than because I'm missing a movement every minute. Having had to initiate avoiding action at least twice that I can remember now, and being scared sh*tless as a result on one occasion (to the point of being sick in flight), I certainly don't want to do that to someone else.
Cheers,
grob103
Edited to replace "turn north" with "turn right" (which was north in the particular case
)
