More highly skilled ATCOs
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More highly skilled ATCOs
This one is a sure factor that will for sure lead
to the number of ATCO:s to be adequate
(enough gentlemen/ladies on the seats to handle complex situations that
this kind of new demands will lead to.)
Airline Emissions: Even Worse Than You Think
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/05/airline-emissio.html
It is evident that one more factor will be
put on the demand list of ATCOs: It will not be enough
to maintain an orderly and safe and expedient flow of traffic.
Most likely the emission factor (fuel efficiency) will be on the
list of demands that ATCOs will have to meet in the near future.
and the training level of all ATCOs must be on par
with the requirements of the amount of traffic.
It might even be possible that the airlines might start promoting
to recruit more ATCOs, since there is a direct correlation
on the quality of ATC service to the number of ATCOs.
Because this leads to more open sectors in ATC. And less
workload per person, thus the guys/gals can plan their traffic
more optimally.
And this is especially true if and when the new
kinds of procedures will take place that are required to
achieve fuel savings. Training needs quite a lot of manpower etc...
I can see only one way to give enough direct routings and
optimum flight profiles to counter this kind of phenomenon.
The best we can do is to ask that there are enough
ATCOs and proper training caused by the new demands
for all the professionals in ATC, to do all that can be done to save fuel.
Fuel prices have had also the tendency to soar.
Proper amount of ATCOs (enough open sectors)
will lead to MORE direct routings,
optimal flight profiles. This will lead directly to savings
for the airlines. And the reduction of emissions.
That is for sure.
The technical advancements in airplane engines
will take at least 10-15 years to be effective, so in the meanwhile
it is the best thing that there are enough ATCOs.
to the number of ATCO:s to be adequate
(enough gentlemen/ladies on the seats to handle complex situations that
this kind of new demands will lead to.)
Airline Emissions: Even Worse Than You Think
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/05/airline-emissio.html
It is evident that one more factor will be
put on the demand list of ATCOs: It will not be enough
to maintain an orderly and safe and expedient flow of traffic.
Most likely the emission factor (fuel efficiency) will be on the
list of demands that ATCOs will have to meet in the near future.
and the training level of all ATCOs must be on par
with the requirements of the amount of traffic.
It might even be possible that the airlines might start promoting
to recruit more ATCOs, since there is a direct correlation
on the quality of ATC service to the number of ATCOs.
Because this leads to more open sectors in ATC. And less
workload per person, thus the guys/gals can plan their traffic
more optimally.
And this is especially true if and when the new
kinds of procedures will take place that are required to
achieve fuel savings. Training needs quite a lot of manpower etc...
I can see only one way to give enough direct routings and
optimum flight profiles to counter this kind of phenomenon.
The best we can do is to ask that there are enough
ATCOs and proper training caused by the new demands
for all the professionals in ATC, to do all that can be done to save fuel.
Fuel prices have had also the tendency to soar.
Proper amount of ATCOs (enough open sectors)
will lead to MORE direct routings,
optimal flight profiles. This will lead directly to savings
for the airlines. And the reduction of emissions.
That is for sure.
The technical advancements in airplane engines
will take at least 10-15 years to be effective, so in the meanwhile
it is the best thing that there are enough ATCOs.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 19th May 2008 at 21:00. Reason: clarifying..., bums->gentlemen/ladies, new demands
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Far too long.....fell asleep....is there a shorter coherent version?
Why are you anonymous? Who/what/where are you?
One million eyes are waiting to help if only there was a question.
Why are you anonymous? Who/what/where are you?
One million eyes are waiting to help if only there was a question.
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It might even be possible that airlines might start promoting
more ATCOs, since there is a direct correlation
on the quality of ATC service to the number of ATCOs.
more ATCOs, since there is a direct correlation
on the quality of ATC service to the number of ATCOs.
The technical advancements in airplane engines will at least take 10-15 years to be effective, so in the meanwhile it is the best thing that there are enough ATCOs
sake, get real!What makes you think that getting enough (more) ATCO's all over the world would be feasible so easily? In many places maintaining staffing at the present levels is already a huge challenge ...
Last edited by Moira; 8th May 2008 at 11:33.
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You don't get it. It's not so much about money.
There is a whole generation of controllers who are quickly approaching their retirement age. Replacing them in time is already a challenge (as you will find on some other treads).
You state about pilot training:
So does ATC training. And it takes a while too.
And since it is a world-wide problem headhunting controllers away from their current positions just shifts the problem to a different place.
There is a whole generation of controllers who are quickly approaching their retirement age. Replacing them in time is already a challenge (as you will find on some other treads).
You state about pilot training:
Training needs quite a lot of manpower etc...
And since it is a world-wide problem headhunting controllers away from their current positions just shifts the problem to a different place.
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055...
The real question is:
How do we get more ATCOs on the seats?
More ATCOs are needed.
Or are they?
I am confident that more ATCOs can be recruited.
And will be recruited.
It is a matter of will, time and attitudes (about the costs that ATCOs "represent").
The second question is
Which costs more?
Twenty tons of fuel of an airliner or the salary of an ATCO?
To the ANSP the salary costs more.
To the customer of the ANSP (airlines) the fuel costs more.
More direct routings, more optimal profiles, less costs of fuel.
More sectors open, more optimal routings.
More sectors open, more ATCOs needed.
The real question is:
How do we get more ATCOs on the seats?
More ATCOs are needed.
Or are they?
I am confident that more ATCOs can be recruited.
And will be recruited.
It is a matter of will, time and attitudes (about the costs that ATCOs "represent").
The second question is
Which costs more?
Twenty tons of fuel of an airliner or the salary of an ATCO?
To the ANSP the salary costs more.
To the customer of the ANSP (airlines) the fuel costs more.
More direct routings, more optimal profiles, less costs of fuel.
More sectors open, more optimal routings.
More sectors open, more ATCOs needed.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 8th May 2008 at 11:50. Reason: clarifying...
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They probably can be recruited.
But where/when/by who will you train them?
Training capacity is limited.
And improving sparetime simulators to use them for training, as suggested by you on an other tread is no solution. OJT will still be required, no sim can replace that.
But where/when/by who will you train them?
Training capacity is limited.
And improving sparetime simulators to use them for training, as suggested by you on an other tread is no solution. OJT will still be required, no sim can replace that.
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Moira you are quite much right.
ATCO training takes time. And it takes money.
In many cases at least the OJT training will be done with a
qualified controller watching by. With a salary
of at least a normal ATCO. Sometimes even more.
More training capacity costs more money. For the ANSP:s that is.
Less training capacity, less costs. Less air traffic controllers.
Or at least on a measured period of time.
So what should be done to get more ATCOs to the seats?
I think it is quite possible.
ATCO training takes time. And it takes money.
In many cases at least the OJT training will be done with a
qualified controller watching by. With a salary
of at least a normal ATCO. Sometimes even more.
More training capacity costs more money. For the ANSP:s that is.
Less training capacity, less costs. Less air traffic controllers.
Or at least on a measured period of time.
So what should be done to get more ATCOs to the seats?
I think it is quite possible.
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Slo, I get a feeling you're turning my words somewhat around.
For the record: I don't agree with your point of view, you're making it sound way to simple.
Training capacity is not just limited by financial means or the willingness to spend more money on training. It's also limited by human factors. In busy working environments you can't just put one (let alone more) trainee next to each fully qualified controller.
For the record: I don't agree with your point of view, you're making it sound way to simple.
Training capacity is not just limited by financial means or the willingness to spend more money on training. It's also limited by human factors. In busy working environments you can't just put one (let alone more) trainee next to each fully qualified controller.
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Moira: You are quite right. The training capacity
in many ATC facilities should have been upgraded and
updated years ago to have more capacity, i.e. more throughput.
That is the training system should produce more ATC:s.
I think we can agree on that, can we?
Now that this has not been done, because of monetary
reasons (saving money) many an ATC training system has
come to the limits that the "bums on the seats" are needed
fully to be sitting on the very seats to control the aircraft.
And they can not be taken to train new controllers. The case is not
this dire in many places, but the trend is clear.
So something needs to be done.
It seems quite much that the savings made earlier
will lead to quite high costs now or in the near future.
If we assume that some of the ANSP is so tight on personnel, that they
can not take any ATCO from the seat, then they would have to pay
overtime compensations to get the operative controllers
to do training in their spare time. Or they will have to
buy training from outside, from some training company.
(roughly triple or more the cost compared to in house training)
The question is:
How to get more controllers, since they are needed?
I think we can agree on this also.
It seems quite possible, some attitudes about money
might need adjustment.
in many ATC facilities should have been upgraded and
updated years ago to have more capacity, i.e. more throughput.
That is the training system should produce more ATC:s.
I think we can agree on that, can we?
Now that this has not been done, because of monetary
reasons (saving money) many an ATC training system has
come to the limits that the "bums on the seats" are needed
fully to be sitting on the very seats to control the aircraft.
And they can not be taken to train new controllers. The case is not
this dire in many places, but the trend is clear.
So something needs to be done.
It seems quite much that the savings made earlier
will lead to quite high costs now or in the near future.
If we assume that some of the ANSP is so tight on personnel, that they
can not take any ATCO from the seat, then they would have to pay
overtime compensations to get the operative controllers
to do training in their spare time. Or they will have to
buy training from outside, from some training company.
(roughly triple or more the cost compared to in house training)
The question is:
How to get more controllers, since they are needed?
I think we can agree on this also.
It seems quite possible, some attitudes about money
might need adjustment.
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Moira, after reading your post and my earlier posts
more carefully, I must say that I quite much did not
suggest to use spare time simulators
to train ATCOs.
The answer obviously for getting
more ATCOs is somewhere.
It is a matter of will to find the solution.
It might also lead to some benefits for the customers.
Saving fuel costs, potentilly better safety, etc.
more carefully, I must say that I quite much did not
suggest to use spare time simulators
to train ATCOs.
The answer obviously for getting
more ATCOs is somewhere.
It is a matter of will to find the solution.
It might also lead to some benefits for the customers.
Saving fuel costs, potentilly better safety, etc.
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Verci:
I am sorry to give impressions of that kind.
I have 10 years of experience as an ATCO.
I would like to keep my anonymity, since this
is possible.
The reason I try to write as plainly as possible is to
promote understanding, (to save time, just like many ATCOs
I am a bit lazy, I would not like to explain myself that much)
And about your command of languages, I am impressed!
I am sorry to give impressions of that kind.
I have 10 years of experience as an ATCO.
I would like to keep my anonymity, since this
is possible.
The reason I try to write as plainly as possible is to
promote understanding, (to save time, just like many ATCOs
I am a bit lazy, I would not like to explain myself that much)
And about your command of languages, I am impressed!
Last edited by Slo Moe; 8th May 2008 at 12:59. Reason: O missing...
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@ SloeMoe,
you just started the Thread of future. This is the most important question for future ANSPs and air carriers. As someone who is highly involved in such question and trying to rise attention within system but it is going very slowly. If I am honest i should say,it sounds like there is no chance to do it,but mother nature is the only factor. They will go to pension and then we will do it.
This is the list of things that are the main constraints to more effective direct routing :
- Too much military presence. things changes a little bit with FUA concept but it is hard to work with them. you should explain to France Air force generals that they should avoid some areas during mid summer. (FAF is only example nothing better,nothing worse than others).
- As I said some people from management level must go to pension.
-Also ANSPs and air carriers must seat down on table and start to work together.
-Regional cooperation is good but we need European level.
-oil is still not too expensive. Action could be expected at level of 200$/barrel
- More sectors in Europe ,doesn't mean more direct routes. Why? Because ,one sector(big one) manned by one /two ATCOs could decide without any coordination any direct routing within their sector. If you divide this sector on two/three sectors for the same direct routing ATCo from first sector should make big coordination with adjacent sectors in order to give direct routing. And sometimes,you can't do proper coordination for such action and a/c will fly point by point,not DCT.
- If sector is too big than is too much complexity over EXE ATCO so he/she is not able to give the most fuel efficient route,because he/she has lot of other duties.. In such cases you will see more common option among ATCOs( keeping their license rather than traffic efficiency). Nothing bad with this. it is so natural.
-EC has SAAM tool that could help in such problems(designing proper sectors) but this is only tool, and not quite accepted but users.
-No one still is designated as institutional leader -for such question.
How big is that problem read this story:
-On some local route(500 Nm) ,crew often REFUSED DCT routing even this could reduce track distance by at least 150 Nm. Why? Because,if they accepted shorter route it means that they will reduce flight time and there is no enough time for flight attendants to serve food and drinks to passengers. Believe or not!
-Even Europe is becoming one state(more and less) at RNDGS meetings you will hear a lot of "local" political interests that block any improvement. You need approval from many parties for any new route because Europe is still fragmented, and if something is good for Greece it doesn't mean that it wouldn't destroy vital national interests of Sweden(again only example)
- a lot of work is ahead of us,and administration is always afraid of work.
- if you have ever spent a day within ATC you will know how big are HRMs . So no chance that something will happen in terms of staffing level in long term future.
- More and more issues but I have to go....
Best regards,
you just started the Thread of future. This is the most important question for future ANSPs and air carriers. As someone who is highly involved in such question and trying to rise attention within system but it is going very slowly. If I am honest i should say,it sounds like there is no chance to do it,but mother nature is the only factor. They will go to pension and then we will do it.
This is the list of things that are the main constraints to more effective direct routing :
- Too much military presence. things changes a little bit with FUA concept but it is hard to work with them. you should explain to France Air force generals that they should avoid some areas during mid summer. (FAF is only example nothing better,nothing worse than others).
- As I said some people from management level must go to pension.
-Also ANSPs and air carriers must seat down on table and start to work together.
-Regional cooperation is good but we need European level.
-oil is still not too expensive. Action could be expected at level of 200$/barrel
- More sectors in Europe ,doesn't mean more direct routes. Why? Because ,one sector(big one) manned by one /two ATCOs could decide without any coordination any direct routing within their sector. If you divide this sector on two/three sectors for the same direct routing ATCo from first sector should make big coordination with adjacent sectors in order to give direct routing. And sometimes,you can't do proper coordination for such action and a/c will fly point by point,not DCT.
- If sector is too big than is too much complexity over EXE ATCO so he/she is not able to give the most fuel efficient route,because he/she has lot of other duties.. In such cases you will see more common option among ATCOs( keeping their license rather than traffic efficiency). Nothing bad with this. it is so natural.
-EC has SAAM tool that could help in such problems(designing proper sectors) but this is only tool, and not quite accepted but users.
-No one still is designated as institutional leader -for such question.
How big is that problem read this story:
-On some local route(500 Nm) ,crew often REFUSED DCT routing even this could reduce track distance by at least 150 Nm. Why? Because,if they accepted shorter route it means that they will reduce flight time and there is no enough time for flight attendants to serve food and drinks to passengers. Believe or not!
-Even Europe is becoming one state(more and less) at RNDGS meetings you will hear a lot of "local" political interests that block any improvement. You need approval from many parties for any new route because Europe is still fragmented, and if something is good for Greece it doesn't mean that it wouldn't destroy vital national interests of Sweden(again only example)
- a lot of work is ahead of us,and administration is always afraid of work.
- if you have ever spent a day within ATC you will know how big
are HRMs . So no chance that something will happen in terms of staffing level in long term future. - More and more issues but I have to go....
Best regards,
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Singa...
Thank you for your thorough insight.
Lots of things can be done.
And will be done.
We see evidence quite much on
the face of newspapers that something
needs to be done. And quickly.
Actually I have evidenced one tropical
storm myself. We would rather reduce
them, if anyhow possible.
I understand that it is debatable, whether
the weather actually will improve, if
right kind of action is taken.
I would rather do all that can be done
to prevent Katrina, Gonu, Nargis et al.
However small actions.
Thank you for your thorough insight.
Lots of things can be done.
And will be done.
We see evidence quite much on
the face of newspapers that something
needs to be done. And quickly.
Actually I have evidenced one tropical
storm myself. We would rather reduce
them, if anyhow possible.
I understand that it is debatable, whether
the weather actually will improve, if
right kind of action is taken.
I would rather do all that can be done
to prevent Katrina, Gonu, Nargis et al.
However small actions.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 8th May 2008 at 17:25.
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There is one more upside to this all.
If ANSP:s and airlines take real and true action to
cut down the emissions, then it is a potential
victory for the image of all the aviation business.
So it might be said that it is a clear victory for all of us.
And Singapurcanac. FUA is definately a step towards right direction.
That I have experience of. It demands also the change of attitudes
of the instructors and examiners and thus the change of attitudes
of the controllers. ( i. e. It is safe to give direct routings with proper
tools for MTCD, and when there are two controllers working on
one position etc...)The thing is that it costs money. I would
rather enjoy the money to be used when there
still is time to use it wisely.
If ANSP:s and airlines take real and true action to
cut down the emissions, then it is a potential
victory for the image of all the aviation business.
So it might be said that it is a clear victory for all of us.
And Singapurcanac. FUA is definately a step towards right direction.
That I have experience of. It demands also the change of attitudes
of the instructors and examiners and thus the change of attitudes
of the controllers. ( i. e. It is safe to give direct routings with proper
tools for MTCD, and when there are two controllers working on
one position etc...)The thing is that it costs money. I would
rather enjoy the money to be used when there
still is time to use it wisely.
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Debate at one session:
" What will happen if we give to a/c at the departure end of runway(somewhere in South Europe) DCT OM LHR?"
"Probably,nothing special. some kind of chaos?
"usually we don't have chaos?!
"yes,we have"
" So what is the difference?"
" It is too hard,to change some things,today."
after that we put an imagined flight from very south of Europe to USA,early morning,requested FL 340,into SAAM simulation with real traffic for that summer day. And you know what happened? Nothing. One conflict,but no air miss or near miss,on the whole route,up to Scotland. Only one conflict without any input from ATC.
So some things are possible but fuel isn't so expensive .
the key for direct routings is in hands of OPEC ministers. Not in Europe.
Unfortunately.
Happy Europe day!
" What will happen if we give to a/c at the departure end of runway(somewhere in South Europe) DCT OM LHR?"
"Probably,nothing special. some kind of chaos?
"usually we don't have chaos?!
"yes,we have"
" So what is the difference?"
" It is too hard,to change some things,today."
after that we put an imagined flight from very south of Europe to USA,early morning,requested FL 340,into SAAM simulation with real traffic for that summer day. And you know what happened? Nothing. One conflict,but no air miss or near miss,on the whole route,up to Scotland. Only one conflict without any input from ATC.
So some things are possible but fuel isn't so expensive .
the key for direct routings is in hands of OPEC ministers. Not in Europe.
Unfortunately.
Happy Europe day!
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Another question for you both, When was the last Outer Marker (OM)removed at Heathrow then....? Anyone? Bren?
and where was the nearest Fan Marker?
BEX
and where was the nearest Fan Marker?
BEX
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Thank you Singapurcanac. This kind of information is very good.
It is counterintuitive to how I was trained (Keep'em on the airways etc...)
But it shows clearly that there are immediate possibilities to be used,
since there is the will.
There are a few professions and industries and marvels of today
that I have come to appreciate a lot.
One is the modern genetics. The whole new industry showed us, that
the people, who were not too much in peace in the near or
further past were virtually cousins, when studied carefully
from the point of view of the genes.
The other is the Internet. It has increased our possibility to really
understand, that our actions do matter. However small.
The third is the aviation industry as a whole. It has helped
tremendeously in understanding, how much alike we all are.
Regardless of our past, regardless of some differences in people
and their views of this world of ours.
Aviation has made possible the things that were available only to
a select few in the past.
We can now meet people from different countries and talk
with them. We can visit their beautiful and safe country
and enjoy their hospitality. We have the possibility to understand
that their opinions are very valuable just as our opinions are.
Now we can really call us the select few. (And this is not because of
the selection process...)
I would do quite a bit of things to preserve
the goodies that we have now.
Some things need to change in order to
enjoy the goodies also tomorrow.
It is counterintuitive to how I was trained (Keep'em on the airways etc...)
But it shows clearly that there are immediate possibilities to be used,
since there is the will.
There are a few professions and industries and marvels of today
that I have come to appreciate a lot.
One is the modern genetics. The whole new industry showed us, that
the people, who were not too much in peace in the near or
further past were virtually cousins, when studied carefully
from the point of view of the genes.
The other is the Internet. It has increased our possibility to really
understand, that our actions do matter. However small.
The third is the aviation industry as a whole. It has helped
tremendeously in understanding, how much alike we all are.
Regardless of our past, regardless of some differences in people
and their views of this world of ours.
Aviation has made possible the things that were available only to
a select few in the past.
We can now meet people from different countries and talk
with them. We can visit their beautiful and safe country
and enjoy their hospitality. We have the possibility to understand
that their opinions are very valuable just as our opinions are.
Now we can really call us the select few. (And this is not because of
the selection process...)
I would do quite a bit of things to preserve
the goodies that we have now.
Some things need to change in order to
enjoy the goodies also tomorrow.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 9th May 2008 at 03:45. Reason: dot the i:s
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Just before I go to holiday,
We are talking about DCT routing ,but we can still hear,
Two a/c. Head on traffic.100 Nm. lower wants to climb. It is non written rule(I wouldn't say the place) that you have to turn left/right by 30 degrees a/c that wants to climb. after established on new HDG than climb to requested level. Once passed level of second a/c then turn back to requested route.
Even ICAO said: radar sep min for such case is 5 Nm! Under no circumstances you are not allowed to do it "normaly" .
And we are talking about DCT routing and fuel efficiency...
Sometimes it sounds like utopia...
We are talking about DCT routing ,but we can still hear,
Two a/c. Head on traffic.100 Nm. lower wants to climb. It is non written rule(I wouldn't say the place) that you have to turn left/right by 30 degrees a/c that wants to climb. after established on new HDG than climb to requested level. Once passed level of second a/c then turn back to requested route.
Even ICAO said: radar sep min for such case is 5 Nm! Under no circumstances you are not allowed to do it "normaly" .
And we are talking about DCT routing and fuel efficiency...
Sometimes it sounds like utopia...