Cowardly act on 121.5
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I visted LTCC last year (before the move to Swanick) as part of a very interesting & useful group GA visit. Part of the tour was to drop into the D&D cell for a look around & chat to the two (seemingly bored out of their minds) RAF types running it.
As part of the conversation, we were positivley encouraged to make Practice PAN or Training Fix calls on 121.5 once in a while because "it's good practice for you & it's good practice for us".
Also very interesting to see the rather 1970's equipment used!
As part of the conversation, we were positivley encouraged to make Practice PAN or Training Fix calls on 121.5 once in a while because "it's good practice for you & it's good practice for us".
Also very interesting to see the rather 1970's equipment used!
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Dear all
This has been done to death before. I used to run safety days for GA pilots where OC D&D would lecture on the role and services available. They positively encouraged the use of 121.5 for PPAN calls because:
1. It aids in their training/currency requirements.
2. It was considered far better that the first time a pilot used 121.5 it was in a controlled none emergency scenario where fluffing it up is not significant rather than do it during a real 'brown trouser moment'!
Ah - a quick search reveals this thread from before:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...tice+emergency
AND, this post by Diddle Dee who is obviously a D&D controller.
I think the last line of his post says it all really
This has been done to death before. I used to run safety days for GA pilots where OC D&D would lecture on the role and services available. They positively encouraged the use of 121.5 for PPAN calls because:
1. It aids in their training/currency requirements.
2. It was considered far better that the first time a pilot used 121.5 it was in a controlled none emergency scenario where fluffing it up is not significant rather than do it during a real 'brown trouser moment'!
Ah - a quick search reveals this thread from before:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...tice+emergency
AND, this post by Diddle Dee who is obviously a D&D controller.
I think the last line of his post says it all really
I dont intend to get embroiled in a debate about 121.5 usage by GA pilots in the UK. It is a FACT that the huge majority of tx on 121.5 are by CAT. Some points I would like to make.
1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & receives a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his spiel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after a couple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a controller or when I am flying, if I don’t get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.
2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.
3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they weren’t confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go around.
4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".
In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!
DD
1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & receives a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his spiel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after a couple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a controller or when I am flying, if I don’t get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.
2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.
3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they weren’t confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go around.
4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".
In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!
DD
Avoid imitations
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Shytorque -
Because when 121.5 is constantly buzzing with non-emergency transmissions I for one am guilty of deselecting it to give my ears a rest and forgetting to reselect.
Because when 121.5 is constantly buzzing with non-emergency transmissions I for one am guilty of deselecting it to give my ears a rest and forgetting to reselect.
I'm single pilot these days and so I have to manage both radios all by myself but don't have a problem with remembering to adjust volume levels. I'm constantly using box two for something or other, in addition to my main comms on box one, and therefore constantly checking the squelch and volumes. I often listen to the PP / TF calls out of interest, provided they aren't blocking something on box 1.
As far as usage of 121.5 in the Gulf is concerned; are UK pilots' transmissions reaching that far afield and causing a problem?
I seem to recall in the dim and distant says when I was doing my f/w PPL that my instructor (Paul H - hello if you're out there) called London Info first to see if a Practice Pan was ok - i.e. the D&D controllers weren't already dealing with an emergency.
I'll stand ready to be corrected on the technical details, but shouldn't normal radio etiquette mean that the chance of a real emergency being blocked be absolutely minimal, even if the real emergency is being received by an aerial different to a Practice Pan ?
I'll stand ready to be corrected on the technical details, but shouldn't normal radio etiquette mean that the chance of a real emergency being blocked be absolutely minimal, even if the real emergency is being received by an aerial different to a Practice Pan ?
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ATCO Fred
Thank you for pulling that quote up, I really couldn't be bothered to go through it all again
I stand by my previous post with very little to add ......
However a little story from a few days ago.
Someone (CAT) is transmitting on guard so we get the usual chorus of your'e on guard from about 5 other CAT overfliers then one of them decides to call the offending pilot a to$$er...... Shame he was coasting out in an area all on his own beautifully picked out on DF with 100% certanity that it was ABC1234, Glanced at the radar, read of his callsign & reminded him that we have the ability to ID the guard police. He sounded just like a school kid that had been caught doing something he shouldn't have.... hopefully he might refrain from doing it again.
Leave 121.5 for what it is in the UK, a freq for real & PRACTICE emergencies, and before someone says yeah but we hear it miles away outside the UK, well yes I suppose you must because we hear a lot of all the crap that get TX on 121.5 in Europe!
Fly safely
DD
Thank you for pulling that quote up, I really couldn't be bothered to go through it all again
I stand by my previous post with very little to add ......
However a little story from a few days ago.
Someone (CAT) is transmitting on guard so we get the usual chorus of your'e on guard from about 5 other CAT overfliers then one of them decides to call the offending pilot a to$$er...... Shame he was coasting out in an area all on his own beautifully picked out on DF with 100% certanity that it was ABC1234, Glanced at the radar, read of his callsign & reminded him that we have the ability to ID the guard police. He sounded just like a school kid that had been caught doing something he shouldn't have.... hopefully he might refrain from doing it again.
Leave 121.5 for what it is in the UK, a freq for real & PRACTICE emergencies, and before someone says yeah but we hear it miles away outside the UK, well yes I suppose you must because we hear a lot of all the crap that get TX on 121.5 in Europe!
Fly safely
DD
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Mandatory for us in the Gulf to keep 121.5 on box 2, not only for distress but also in case of comms failure on 1...
It's also understable SOP when flying over most parts of central Africa, in NAT airspace or over the Pacific.
But monitoring 121.5 whilst operating in northern European airspace including, whilst flying in UK airspace? C'mon guys, is this really necessary? I mean, what excatly is the point of the exercise? I've heard of multi-tasking whilst entering the hold at Lambourne or at TOD over BARLU ~ but isn't this taking multi-tasking a wee bit far...?? Since many airlines nowadays prohibit R/T comms even with Company during certain critical stages of the flight, no wonder level busts are still such a serious issue...
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Practice PAN would be all nice and dandy if you could magically limit the calls so that you can only receive them where they are allowed.
Sadly that is not the case so everytime i fly west of say Dusseldorf i have to select the volume on my second set to 0 or just switch from guard to another frequency. That is clearly not the intended purpose of the guard frequency.
Monitoring guard is certainly a good idea, even in europe. I have often monitored that ATC tried to reach a flight there or the other way round. In my company it is a requirement except to get an ATIS or call OPS, especially since 9/11 to prevent an intercept which could happen very fast indeed if you are not able to respond to a guard call.
Sadly that is not the case so everytime i fly west of say Dusseldorf i have to select the volume on my second set to 0 or just switch from guard to another frequency. That is clearly not the intended purpose of the guard frequency.
Monitoring guard is certainly a good idea, even in europe. I have often monitored that ATC tried to reach a flight there or the other way round. In my company it is a requirement except to get an ATIS or call OPS, especially since 9/11 to prevent an intercept which could happen very fast indeed if you are not able to respond to a guard call.
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There was a time you chaps never monitored guard. Now we have this perception that monitoring 121.5 will stop interceptions. Pants. It may well help stop an interception but, if you were on the right freq to start with.......
Anyway, as someone else has already hinted, the majority of ATC freqs over Europe (certainly NW Europe and the UK) are busy so if a pilot is tootling along at FL280 and doesn't hear any ATC for a few minutes its a pretty fair bet that he needs to do something with his radios.
Maybe D&D need to do another CAA survey? ISTR that last time the discoverd that about 75% of noise on 121.5 was idle chit chat. There is also a report where an Icelandic aircraft had a freq pigs and flew over half of the UK without talking to anyone. In mitigation, he said he had turned down 121.5 because of the incessant noise generated by practice PANs. The CAA pointed out that, ordinarily, Jimmy GA doesn't do practice PANs at 0400 on a Sunday morning.
Anyway, as someone else has already hinted, the majority of ATC freqs over Europe (certainly NW Europe and the UK) are busy so if a pilot is tootling along at FL280 and doesn't hear any ATC for a few minutes its a pretty fair bet that he needs to do something with his radios.
Maybe D&D need to do another CAA survey? ISTR that last time the discoverd that about 75% of noise on 121.5 was idle chit chat. There is also a report where an Icelandic aircraft had a freq pigs and flew over half of the UK without talking to anyone. In mitigation, he said he had turned down 121.5 because of the incessant noise generated by practice PANs. The CAA pointed out that, ordinarily, Jimmy GA doesn't do practice PANs at 0400 on a Sunday morning.
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<<Any idea why more airfields aren't VDF equipped in the UK?>>
Cost?
Cost?
From my very, very limited experience flying in the UK (not that I have any experience worth mentioning overall), why do I get the impression that ATC in the UK seem to be seriously understaffed, and probably underequipped as well?
What is CAT?
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I agree with all the above contibutions regarding the merits of practice pans. They are useful for contollers & student pilots alike. However most airlines these days require the monitoring of 121.5 on the second box predominantly for loss of communication (on box 1) reasons & any non essential use of this frequency is a distraction leading to missed calls on the other box or deselecting box 2 thus negating any benefit from having it tuned. Perhaps the time has come to have a separate frequency for practices. May be they could then be more actively encouraged giving more training to the D&D controllers, additional practices for students & perhaps qualified pilots may feel more able to practice.
Must admit the one and only time I have ever used 121.5 for a practice training fix in my microlight, I was very conscious of the nuisance factor for those who must listen out on the freq, I think I would find it annoying having to endure it to often, I for one would be more comfortable with a secondary freq for the purpose.
Nick.
Nick.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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A technical/cost poser for you though.
NATS appears to have 14 radio sites in the UK equipped for 121.5, to use a second frequency would mean each of these sites would need to be upgraded (new or additional equipment).
Each would then need additional landlines/microwave links back to the two D&D cells. These will come with initial costs and often rental/usage charges
The D&D cells will, possibly, need additional equipment to monitor/control the new frequency and calculate the fix.
Who should pay for all that?
NATS appears to have 14 radio sites in the UK equipped for 121.5, to use a second frequency would mean each of these sites would need to be upgraded (new or additional equipment).
Each would then need additional landlines/microwave links back to the two D&D cells. These will come with initial costs and often rental/usage charges
The D&D cells will, possibly, need additional equipment to monitor/control the new frequency and calculate the fix.
Who should pay for all that?
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Better idea. Mandate UHF boxes in all GA aircraft so they can use the Practice Emergency Training Freq (PETF) of 245.1. Auto-T already exists on that freq. Either that or insist all CAT has UHF so they can monitor 243.0.
Either that or insist all CAT has UHF so they can monitor 243.0.
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Originally Posted by Lurking123
Better idea. Mandate UHF boxes in all GA aircraft so they can use the Practice Emergency Training Freq (PETF) of 245.1. Auto-T already exists on that freq. Either that or insist all CAT has UHF so they can monitor 243.0.
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I continue to be amazed that some pilots don't seem to be able to cope with this and seem to be getting this monitoring requirement all round their necks.
If a pilot turns down 121.5 because a transmission on that frequency is interfering with box 1, then they have just been given proof that they do NOT have lost comms on box 1.
Do pilots not routinely check radios by deselecting the squelch and adjusting the volume if required, or does this interfere with the Times crossword?
If a pilot turns down 121.5 because a transmission on that frequency is interfering with box 1, then they have just been given proof that they do NOT have lost comms on box 1.
Do pilots not routinely check radios by deselecting the squelch and adjusting the volume if required, or does this interfere with the Times crossword?
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I guess that's progress? 