Can you see weather for tactical planning?
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Can you see weather for tactical planning?
Folks,
We were chatting on the flight deck the other day about tactical planning and the (important) role of ATC.
I used the example of changing the hold to Braso/elsewhere when the weather conditions so dictated.
It was mooted that ATC/Director/Area radar had no weather picture on their radar and relied on PIREPs/TAF's - no one knew the answer for sure!
Can you guys see sig weather on the screens and do you plan tactically according to the conditions?
Best
KMB01
We were chatting on the flight deck the other day about tactical planning and the (important) role of ATC.
I used the example of changing the hold to Braso/elsewhere when the weather conditions so dictated.
It was mooted that ATC/Director/Area radar had no weather picture on their radar and relied on PIREPs/TAF's - no one knew the answer for sure!
Can you guys see sig weather on the screens and do you plan tactically according to the conditions?
Best
KMB01
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Kemblejet01,
ATC radars aren't good at spotting weather,as permanent echoes and other targets are filtered out,so we can see aircraft.You may occasionally see something but with processed primary,it could be anything.
If we get weather info then we will change routings if possible.We tend to let aircraft do their own weather avoiding,and use more vertical separation.
Weather avoiding in this part of the world,can often lead to leaving controlled airspace,where the military,gliders and tiddlers live.It can make life a lot more messy for us.
ATC radars aren't good at spotting weather,as permanent echoes and other targets are filtered out,so we can see aircraft.You may occasionally see something but with processed primary,it could be anything.
If we get weather info then we will change routings if possible.We tend to let aircraft do their own weather avoiding,and use more vertical separation.
Weather avoiding in this part of the world,can often lead to leaving controlled airspace,where the military,gliders and tiddlers live.It can make life a lot more messy for us.
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In Terminal Control, which looks after the BRASO hold amongst others, there is no weather information at all shown on the radar displays.
The supervisor positions have a weather radar feed which can be used as a strategic planning tool (oh look, we're about to get rained on heavily) but the controllers sat in front of the radar have nothing and rely totally on pilots saying where they do and don't want to go.
If the weather is seriously bad then flow rates are reduced as the system relies heavily on standard routes and procedures. As soon as traffic starts deviating off these routes and into airspace where it wouldn't normally be the amount of co-ordination and the like that has to be done can make for a very high workload and very non standard traffic flows so the only sensible option is to reduce the amount of traffic.
Funny how there's never any weather on a straight in approach track though
The supervisor positions have a weather radar feed which can be used as a strategic planning tool (oh look, we're about to get rained on heavily) but the controllers sat in front of the radar have nothing and rely totally on pilots saying where they do and don't want to go.
If the weather is seriously bad then flow rates are reduced as the system relies heavily on standard routes and procedures. As soon as traffic starts deviating off these routes and into airspace where it wouldn't normally be the amount of co-ordination and the like that has to be done can make for a very high workload and very non standard traffic flows so the only sensible option is to reduce the amount of traffic.
Funny how there's never any weather on a straight in approach track though
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We can't see weather at all on the radar. We rely on pilots telling us where the cells are, however thats not always reliable as one will fly straight through it and another will take a 50 mile detour around it. We deal with it on an individual basis.
In the example you give Braso is generally only used for traffic reasons ie lots of, not weather reasons. If there is a cell sat over LAM then maybe.
In the example you give Braso is generally only used for traffic reasons ie lots of, not weather reasons. If there is a cell sat over LAM then maybe.
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From 1985
And thats the biggest reason why I would argue against having it superimposed on a controllers display - even using a toggle on/off button. Second guessing pilots/aircraft and or airlines SOPs is not what we ATCOs are paid for... Also, what height band is it at? The radar we use can't tell us that.
It's 'nice to know' that there is a cell over a certain area... it gives us a warning that there might be calls for avoidance therefore we can start controlling a bit more defensively, but any ore than that detracts from our main task IMHO.
I have worked on systems that could show weather and now work on ones that can't. In a busy environment, the less clutter the better as far as I am concerned!
...however thats not always reliable as one will fly straight through it and another will take a 50 mile detour around it...
It's 'nice to know' that there is a cell over a certain area... it gives us a warning that there might be calls for avoidance therefore we can start controlling a bit more defensively, but any ore than that detracts from our main task IMHO.
I have worked on systems that could show weather and now work on ones that can't. In a busy environment, the less clutter the better as far as I am concerned!
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Folks,
Thanks for that and I must now bow to the superior knowledge of a relatively inexperienced FO! It raises another poser tho: a couple of months ago I was coming back and LAM was nice and magenta with a CB. Some guys ahead of me asked for a right hand hold, which still left them flying into the gloop (tho not in the magenta bit).
I asked for and was cleared to fly a rh hold displaced 5nm north of LAM with the same axes - it kept me in blue sky, but I wonder if I caused the controllers any undue problems?
KMB01
Thanks for that and I must now bow to the superior knowledge of a relatively inexperienced FO! It raises another poser tho: a couple of months ago I was coming back and LAM was nice and magenta with a CB. Some guys ahead of me asked for a right hand hold, which still left them flying into the gloop (tho not in the magenta bit).
I asked for and was cleared to fly a rh hold displaced 5nm north of LAM with the same axes - it kept me in blue sky, but I wonder if I caused the controllers any undue problems?
KMB01
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Kemblejet01
Short answer would be 'yes', but we always try to give you guys what you want. We just fit other stuff around it. If it gets too complicated (as it often does), we slow the departure rate right down to have less aircraft in the system.
If you ask for somehting and the ATCO does not grant it, be rest assured it is for a very good reason!
Short answer would be 'yes', but we always try to give you guys what you want. We just fit other stuff around it. If it gets too complicated (as it often does), we slow the departure rate right down to have less aircraft in the system.
If you ask for somehting and the ATCO does not grant it, be rest assured it is for a very good reason!
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The centers in the states have NEXRAD base reflectivity radar overlayed on the display. It updates about every 5 minutes and has the ability to filter by altitude. Additionally there is a 60" plasma showing looped doppler radar for the region that occasionally zooms out to show the whole radar picture for the nation.
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Terminal radar in the States displays 6-level WX returns, plus we have a Doppler-like system at my facility called WSP (Weather System Processor) both up and downstairs.
http://www.ll.mit.edu/AviationWeather/WSP-flyer.html
Of course, the range is limited to our ASR-9's range of 60nm, but works very well, providing TSTM and wind shear/microburst warnings. I think it takes a few years experience in ATC to learn to use the displays to best advantage, but I get very, very little disagreement from flight crews when I suggest a heading or route. It almost always agrees with their view from the aircraft's radar. Of course, I always make sure the crew know my vectors are advisory in nature only.
I probably get 10 compliments for the handling for every "I don't think we wanna do that".
http://www.ll.mit.edu/AviationWeather/WSP-flyer.html
Of course, the range is limited to our ASR-9's range of 60nm, but works very well, providing TSTM and wind shear/microburst warnings. I think it takes a few years experience in ATC to learn to use the displays to best advantage, but I get very, very little disagreement from flight crews when I suggest a heading or route. It almost always agrees with their view from the aircraft's radar. Of course, I always make sure the crew know my vectors are advisory in nature only.
I probably get 10 compliments for the handling for every "I don't think we wanna do that".
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General rule of thumb, we will do what we can to assist you in avoiding weather. This does create some issues for us and final spacing and thus arrival rates. This in turn creates "liquid" delays, i.e. some aircraft will fly through some weather others won't. It is difficult to create a definite air picture and acccurate EAT's in these circumstances.
Strange how BA seem to find more weather than most other airlines!
Strange how BA seem to find more weather than most other airlines!
