Takeoff Clearance: Do You Give Wind Info?

[posi+iveLanding]

The takeoff clearance by ATC in my area is without wind data. Only if we request then they will inform us. It seems to me that it is not their procedure to issue when they clear an aircraft to takeoff.
For a long runway maybe it is not that critical, but a 5 knots tailwind for a short one can be very different
Anyone knows guidelines or reference for a takeoff clearance? Thanks

Post

[Spitoon]

ICAO PANS-ATM says

7.3.1.2 AERODROME AND METEOROLOGICAL
INFORMATION
7.3.1.2.1 Prior to taxiing for take-off, aircraft shall be advised of the following elements of information, in the order listed, with the exception of such elements which it is known the aircraft has already received:
a) the runway to be used;
b) the surface wind direction and speed, including significant variations therefrom;...

and

7.3.1.2.2 Prior to take-off aircraft shall be advised of:
a) any significant changes in the surface wind direction and speed, the air temperature, and the visibility or RVR value(s) given in accordance with 7.3.1.2.1;

In the UK we routinely pass the surface wind with the take-off clearance but that's because our rules require it.

[2 sheds]

Custom and practice, perhaps, but not rules!

[Spitoon]

OK, 2 sheds, fair cop. The UK procedures reflect the ICAO ones - but it happens everywhere I've worked. And I seem to recall a rather stern look from a CAA chap once when I didn't pass it with the clearance because I'd given the pilot a windcheck as he left the apron - maybe one minute before - because the wind was going round to the favour the other end!

[Goldfish Jack]

Of course the point is, when must the wind be given and what TIME before take-off - they got it on the ATIS and there is no significant variance - do you still have to give it for take-off?? I don't know this answer.

HOw long is PRIOR to take-off???? How long is a piece of string?? If it is busy I often dont give the wind - I know they have it from the ATIS and they can see the windsocks.........

[NormaStitz]

Aside from the aircraft handling aspects, wind info is important to retain should you ever have a fire/suspected on the roll - Manchester in 1985 re-iterated that

[av8boy]

In the US we are required to give the wind with the takeoff clearance if there is a tailwind component. To wit:

3-5-3. TAILWIND COMPONENTS
When authorizing use of runways and a tailwind
component exists, always state both wind direction
and velocity.

Of course, "tailwind" means anything more than 90 degrees off the runway axis. Also, it's required for all Navy and Air Force departures, regardless direction or velocity.

In cases where surface wind differs in a material way from what the ATIS is saying, I think we owe it to our customers to tell them what the surface wind is, whether or not it's required. Same thing where conditions appear to have changed and there may be an unasked question on the flight deck. This is to say, even if the wind is the same as it is on the ATIS, if it seems likely that there are going to be a bunch of wind checks requested because it looks as though we'd had a frontal passage, etc, I'd suggest giving wind checks without a request becasue it removes the extra RT.

That having been said, I've always given it as part of my standard pattern unless I'm simply too busy. However, if surface wind conditions are sporty, then I'm never too busy to give a wind check. Ultimately, it costs me very little and the benefits may be substantial.

Dave

[chiglet]

Been a Tower ATCA/ATSA since 1969...and every ATCO has passed the wind on departure......
watpiktch

[Guiller]

From how many knots is the wind considered to be in calm??

[av8boy]

In the US, wind less than three knots is described as "calm."

[posi+iveLanding]

Spitoon, av8boy, thanks for the reference.
We have quite a number of takeoff with tailwind component above limit from QAR report. I was thinking if ATCO in the country can contribute to reduce the figure by issuing the wind condition when giving takeoff clearance.