Could you give me a MATS reference?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,695
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From: Egcc
Could you give me a MATS reference?
Hi guys
Don't often venture in this forum, but a question has arisen that I can't find the answer to without some form of input from you esteemed chaps and chappesses.
What I would like is verbatim from the MATS (which I can't find a copy of in cyberspace) regarding clearance level restrictions and their continued (or not) validity when being handed over from one unit to another. For example, the arrival into Manchester from the south says to expect FL200 10nm before Monty. So we plan on this and are practically always given this restriction by London when we descend. This is below our ideal profile and thus not the most economical way to fly the jet.
Now I have been told that there is a reference in MATS which stipulates that on handover the next controller MUST restate this restriction if it is still to apply, if the controller does not we are free to regain our ideal profile (hence be above FL200 passing over Monty). So, is this true? Can you supply me with the reference and the relevant text? Is it as simple as that? If on handover we tell the controller of the restriction but he/she does not restate it, does it still apply? Any comments and thoughts (and an electronic copy of MATS!) would be very useful!
Cheers guys and keep up the great work.
PP
Don't often venture in this forum, but a question has arisen that I can't find the answer to without some form of input from you esteemed chaps and chappesses.
What I would like is verbatim from the MATS (which I can't find a copy of in cyberspace) regarding clearance level restrictions and their continued (or not) validity when being handed over from one unit to another. For example, the arrival into Manchester from the south says to expect FL200 10nm before Monty. So we plan on this and are practically always given this restriction by London when we descend. This is below our ideal profile and thus not the most economical way to fly the jet.
Now I have been told that there is a reference in MATS which stipulates that on handover the next controller MUST restate this restriction if it is still to apply, if the controller does not we are free to regain our ideal profile (hence be above FL200 passing over Monty). So, is this true? Can you supply me with the reference and the relevant text? Is it as simple as that? If on handover we tell the controller of the restriction but he/she does not restate it, does it still apply? Any comments and thoughts (and an electronic copy of MATS!) would be very useful!
Cheers guys and keep up the great work.
PP
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 68
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From: Feet up waiting for coffee
Caa Publications
Air Traffic services
CAP 493
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...=detail&id=222
DTUP
Air Traffic services
CAP 493
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...=detail&id=222
DTUP
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 353
Likes: 4
From: Around
If you have been given a level restriction, the only time that it needs to be re-stated is when you are given a subsequent level clearance and the controller wants you still to meet the previous restriction. It's nothing to do with handover from one controller to another, previous clearances and restrictions still stand after a change of frequency.
This subject has been discussed in here many times, if you have a search.
This subject has been discussed in here many times, if you have a search.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
From: 29 Acacia Road
At risk of opening a can of worms here, but if i give you a level restriction and then a frequency change, I'd like you to make that level unless the next guy specifically says you dont need to - mostly because theres a good chance you will end up in someone elses sector! I know the rules say any clearance cancels previous etc etc, but it isnt inherently safe IMO. Ask for a visit to see us if you are based at manch pete 
As rodan says tho, plenty of previous on this topic
LOA
As rodan says tho, plenty of previous on this topic
LOA
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 1
From: Egcc
previous clearances and restrictions still stand after a change of frequency.
Can you see the problem, all I can get is what people tell me is the right way, no definitive manual reference! We used to have an ATC liaison pilot (sadly the role has gone) and he was adamant that NATS were telling him that the restriction HAD to be restated if it was still to apply.
The thing is that reducing fuel burns is (rightly) becoming a hot topic and as a company we are exploring every avenue to potentially save a few kgs here and there and this is an issue which has come up.
Cheers
Pete
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 122
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From: 29 Acacia Road
Here you go, Mats pt 1, section 1 chpt 4 para 7.1
"When an amendment is made to a clearance the new clearance shall be read in full to the pilot and shall automatically cancel any previous clearance. Controllers must be aware, therefore, that if the original clearance included a restriction, e.g. “cross ABC FL150 or below” then the issue of a revised clearance automatically cancels the earlier restriction, unless it is reiterated with the revised clearance."
Changing frequency doesnt constitute a clearance, so until the next controller gives you a level, you have to stick with the restriction. Personally, its a pain in the a$$ and clogs up rt to have to restate a lot of the restrictions when giving a new level after transfer...
"When an amendment is made to a clearance the new clearance shall be read in full to the pilot and shall automatically cancel any previous clearance. Controllers must be aware, therefore, that if the original clearance included a restriction, e.g. “cross ABC FL150 or below” then the issue of a revised clearance automatically cancels the earlier restriction, unless it is reiterated with the revised clearance."
Changing frequency doesnt constitute a clearance, so until the next controller gives you a level, you have to stick with the restriction. Personally, its a pain in the a$$ and clogs up rt to have to restate a lot of the restrictions when giving a new level after transfer...
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 1
From: Egcc
Thank you all very much. landedoutagain, do I just call the Tower to arrange that visit, which I think may be a good idea? Anyone in particular to co-ordinate or should I go through my employer?
Cheers
PP
Cheers
PP
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,839
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From: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Pete- why would you be after a MATS reference? Airmen are not accountable to a MATS. If you are checking them, surely your reference would be the AIP or similar?
The requirement to comply with a clearance is stated there (AIP), and is not cancelled by a frequency change. The communication aspect of the frequency change is to re-state your cleared level and callsign only, unless instructed to advise anything else. Your compliance with all previous instructions remains unchanged. AIP refers.
The requirement to comply with a clearance is stated there (AIP), and is not cancelled by a frequency change. The communication aspect of the frequency change is to re-state your cleared level and callsign only, unless instructed to advise anything else. Your compliance with all previous instructions remains unchanged. AIP refers.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,543
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From: Samsonite Avenue
ferris
Having access to MATS Part 1 is an invaluable document for any flight crew member and it is often nice to find the source of many procedures that we face on a day to day basis. The fact that it is a document for ATCOs only is irrelevant since a puzzled pilot with a burning question can find it just as useful as an ATCO can!
Pilot Pete
Your topic of being able to stay higher for longer will always be a burning issue. I suspect that as airspace gets busier we will be in a position where we won't be able to operate our aircraft as efficiently as we would like. With CDA techniques being a hot topic and used at many UK airports, the fact that we are kept at lower levels for longer in a way negates the effort that we put in to our CDA arrivals!
Having access to MATS Part 1 is an invaluable document for any flight crew member and it is often nice to find the source of many procedures that we face on a day to day basis. The fact that it is a document for ATCOs only is irrelevant since a puzzled pilot with a burning question can find it just as useful as an ATCO can!
Pilot Pete
Your topic of being able to stay higher for longer will always be a burning issue. I suspect that as airspace gets busier we will be in a position where we won't be able to operate our aircraft as efficiently as we would like. With CDA techniques being a hot topic and used at many UK airports, the fact that we are kept at lower levels for longer in a way negates the effort that we put in to our CDA arrivals!
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 306
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From: Down South
The reason for that Monty restriction is that there is an airspace split in Manchester at FL195. They need you to be FL195 or below at Monty to keep you out of the higher Manchester sector, that's why they want you at FL200 10 before - gives them a chance to get you down.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Hants
...the fact that we are kept at lower levels for longer in a way negates the effort that we put in to our CDA arrivals!
