Radar identification of VFR flights
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Radar identification of VFR flights
Hi folks ...
what are the procedures or the daily practice at your unit in regard to the above question :
VFR flight calls in from E Class airspace - would you use phrase "Identified" (or whatever else you use in that regard) at all ? And if so - what kind of service you provide in that case speaking of legal terms ..
Thanx a lot
1999
what are the procedures or the daily practice at your unit in regard to the above question :
VFR flight calls in from E Class airspace - would you use phrase "Identified" (or whatever else you use in that regard) at all ? And if so - what kind of service you provide in that case speaking of legal terms ..
Thanx a lot
1999
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In the UK @ EGNT we identify VFR all the time, if possible ie transponder code, as part of LARS and offer the service requested i.e. 80% FIS. For a FIS we would not tell them they are identified.
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LOL @ chevvron (
I'm not getting involved in this; Talkdownman where are you?)
I'm in Slovenia - we adopted ICAO procedures in whole without any significant State additions .
We had a heated debate a while ago about the subject and the opinions differed - based mostly on the origin of the initial training facilities we attained years ago ( Langen/Germany , UK , USA ..)
Therefore i was just curious how folks deal with it elsewhere ..
Thanx guys/gals and keep 'em commin'
1999
p.s. I personally prefer "Germans" way ( according to !turnleftrightnow! - for FIS contact freq... ) although i did all of my training in the UK .
I'm not getting involved in this; Talkdownman where are you?)
I'm in Slovenia - we adopted ICAO procedures in whole without any significant State additions .
We had a heated debate a while ago about the subject and the opinions differed - based mostly on the origin of the initial training facilities we attained years ago ( Langen/Germany , UK , USA ..)
Therefore i was just curious how folks deal with it elsewhere ..
Thanx guys/gals and keep 'em commin'
1999
p.s. I personally prefer "Germans" way ( according to !turnleftrightnow! - for FIS contact freq... ) although i did all of my training in the UK .
OK but I can only speak for operation in class G airspace.
In the UK, IFR commercial flights can and do operate to/from airfields in class G airspace. There is in fact very little class E airspace, those airfields with sufficient passenger throughput having class D airspace protection. Several of the airfields in class G have their own radar approach control and when an IFR arrival or departure is handled, it is given a radar service; if there is VFR traffic around and it is identified, the workload for controller/pilot is reduced because the VFR traffic then becomes known traffic, thus there is no need to pass unnecessary avoiding action to the IFR traffic. The VFR traffic is normally (at my unit) identified using SSR, and our CAA have told us that when we do this we must tell the pilot he is identified and verify any associated altitude readout from his transponder. He is not provided with radar service, just Flight Information Service in spite of the fact ICAO Doc 4444 does describe the 'Use of radar in the Flight information Service' in Chapter 8 Section 8.11, the UK CAA insist on providing a range of radar services which are not listed in any ICAO document (as far as I know!).
In the UK, IFR commercial flights can and do operate to/from airfields in class G airspace. There is in fact very little class E airspace, those airfields with sufficient passenger throughput having class D airspace protection. Several of the airfields in class G have their own radar approach control and when an IFR arrival or departure is handled, it is given a radar service; if there is VFR traffic around and it is identified, the workload for controller/pilot is reduced because the VFR traffic then becomes known traffic, thus there is no need to pass unnecessary avoiding action to the IFR traffic. The VFR traffic is normally (at my unit) identified using SSR, and our CAA have told us that when we do this we must tell the pilot he is identified and verify any associated altitude readout from his transponder. He is not provided with radar service, just Flight Information Service in spite of the fact ICAO Doc 4444 does describe the 'Use of radar in the Flight information Service' in Chapter 8 Section 8.11, the UK CAA insist on providing a range of radar services which are not listed in any ICAO document (as far as I know!).
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Just in case someone doesn't know..............
In the UK, if you are receiving a FIS from London Information in Class G airspace you are given a squawk to make you visible to ATC units that are radar equipped.
London Info is a non-radar unit providing a Flight Information Service only.
In the UK, if you are receiving a FIS from London Information in Class G airspace you are given a squawk to make you visible to ATC units that are radar equipped.
London Info is a non-radar unit providing a Flight Information Service only.
Last edited by SwanFIS; 30th Jan 2008 at 18:26.
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Dear Old Mate chevvron said: The VFR traffic is normally (at my unit) identified using SSR, and our CAA have told us that when we do this we must tell the pilot he is identified and verify any associated altitude readout from his transponder. He is not provided with radar service, just Flight Information Service in spite of the fact ICAO Doc 4444 does describe the 'Use of radar in the Flight information Service' in Chapter 8 Section 8.11, the UK CAA insist on providing a range of radar services which are not listed in any ICAO document (as far as I know!).
You're the only one at your unit who does it properly, chevvers, so we all know where we are with you.
I'm sure that you will agree that there are some at your unit who will pass 'the unnecessary avoiding action' to all the VFR traffic by providing FIS traffic with vectors or vertical (control) separation regardless of VMC availability. FIS becomes blurred into RIS with deconfliction, RIS becomes RAS with separation and RAS is unachievable because of traffic congestion and airspace constraints and becomes FAS. Jobsworth ticking of the CAA ATSD 'verification' boxes adds significantly to the RT congestion which in turn compromises flight safety. ATS frequently fails to keep to the terms of the Service Type Contract therefeore there is no wonder that confusion prevails and aircrew are deluded into thinking that lookout may be relaxed. When under a FIS I have been given vectors, procedurual separation and incessant range/bearing radar information. When I query the service provision I am informed FIS only. Small wonder I do my own thing in your local area. It's analagous to FISOs regulating runway occupancy..........perish the thought
You're the only one at your unit who does it properly, chevvers, so we all know where we are with you.
I'm sure that you will agree that there are some at your unit who will pass 'the unnecessary avoiding action' to all the VFR traffic by providing FIS traffic with vectors or vertical (control) separation regardless of VMC availability. FIS becomes blurred into RIS with deconfliction, RIS becomes RAS with separation and RAS is unachievable because of traffic congestion and airspace constraints and becomes FAS. Jobsworth ticking of the CAA ATSD 'verification' boxes adds significantly to the RT congestion which in turn compromises flight safety. ATS frequently fails to keep to the terms of the Service Type Contract therefeore there is no wonder that confusion prevails and aircrew are deluded into thinking that lookout may be relaxed. When under a FIS I have been given vectors, procedurual separation and incessant range/bearing radar information. When I query the service provision I am informed FIS only. Small wonder I do my own thing in your local area. It's analagous to FISOs regulating runway occupancy..........perish the thought
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The UK rules can be confusing. From an ATC perspective, we don't ordinarily think about flight rules in Class G, we are more interested in the type of service you want (there are some tenuous links but they aren't necessarily that obvious). Personally, I would like to be able to identify as many aircraft as I can - regardless of flight rules.
This could be a multi page thread.
This could be a multi page thread.
I experienced 'vectoring under FIS' once myself; southbound towards the Bignor Roman Villa from Blackbushe, called Dunsfold; 'what type of service?' they asked. I replied 'flight information'; 'roger flight information service, turn right heading 230 degrees to avoid IFR traffic inbound'!!!
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Thanx for the input .... I'm fully aware of the differences from the ICAO recommendations and practices applied throughout the world which in turn causes a lot of headaches not just to us controllers but to the pilots even more i would say....
I agree with Lurking123's remark - this could be another one of those multi page threads ... and the bottom line again is a " non-standard " regulations or better "state sovereignity" ....
In the case i mentioned the aircraft was in Class E airspace ( as defined by ICAO Airspace Classification) and it was bellow MSA and Minimum Radar Vectoring altitude . Although our AIP states that use of Radar in special casses may be applied as the sole mean of information, but does not in any case relief the VFR pilot from its responsibility in regard to VFR Flight Rules .
So the real "issue" of our debate was : Is the use of the word "Identified" for such VFR flight pure "sacrillege" ?
I agree with Lurking123's remark - this could be another one of those multi page threads ... and the bottom line again is a " non-standard " regulations or better "state sovereignity" ....
In the case i mentioned the aircraft was in Class E airspace ( as defined by ICAO Airspace Classification) and it was bellow MSA and Minimum Radar Vectoring altitude . Although our AIP states that use of Radar in special casses may be applied as the sole mean of information, but does not in any case relief the VFR pilot from its responsibility in regard to VFR Flight Rules .
So the real "issue" of our debate was : Is the use of the word "Identified" for such VFR flight pure "sacrillege" ?
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Ah, so Vectoring Whilst Under A FIS contagious.....caught from Dunsfold next door, adults exchanging messages over a direct link.
You had better take your medicine, look what happened to them!
You had better take your medicine, look what happened to them!
I see nothing wrong with telling VFR traffic they're identified even when below minimum radar vectoring altitude; identification on its own does not imply a radar service is being provided.
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OHMIGOD! Vectoring FIS traffic! All my years instructing would-be radar controllers was obviously a complete waste of time. I shall never fly again (well, until tomorrow anyway), things are not what they used to be, controllers of today, mutter mumble dribble...........
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Since I have already met similar question in my carrier and taking into account that I could understand better your question I will try to give you some answers.
At first it is very important to define class of Airspace. If it is D or E ( because whole Slovenia is something like CTR) then:
-you may identified VFR traffic in order to give appropriate traffic info for IFR traffic. Instruction for VFR flights should be in accordance with: " I suggest hdg... if you could comply with instructions.. and so on. Never forget that service must not make situation worse.
-If it is class F and G: What the Hell you are doing as ATCO in such airspace.
It is clearly written that there is no atc service provided. You may get infos but "Identified" means that you are taking responsibility even your state defined this as F or G. If state thinks that this is enough than as ATCO you are not qualified to change it. Unless you are thinking that your salary and T&C are excellent and you want to work more than expected.
At first it is very important to define class of Airspace. If it is D or E ( because whole Slovenia is something like CTR) then:
-you may identified VFR traffic in order to give appropriate traffic info for IFR traffic. Instruction for VFR flights should be in accordance with: " I suggest hdg... if you could comply with instructions.. and so on. Never forget that service must not make situation worse.
-If it is class F and G: What the Hell you are doing as ATCO in such airspace.
It is clearly written that there is no atc service provided. You may get infos but "Identified" means that you are taking responsibility even your state defined this as F or G. If state thinks that this is enough than as ATCO you are not qualified to change it. Unless you are thinking that your salary and T&C are excellent and you want to work more than expected.
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SINGAPURCANAC - you hit the nail there and i couldn't agree more with you ...
It was the specified portion of the Class E airspace in question - what you said sums it all quite nicely ..
Thanx
And yes Slovenia is what you said - one nice CTR
Take care
1999
and i couldn't agree more with you ... It was the specified portion of the Class E airspace in question - what you said sums it all quite nicely ..
Thanx
And yes Slovenia is what you said - one nice CTR
Take care
1999
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@1999,
thank you,
Both you and me belong to the same system and we are affected with similar problems. Since I have fights on daily basis with local "experts" I know this and many other answers to similar question. All those questions are usually stupid but "experts" are not familiar with relevant documents. your question is still "normal' one but what would you say after this:
"You can't use Transition level!"- This is direct quote 
. this guy is OJTI with 20+years of experience!
Keep well,
thank you,
Both you and me belong to the same system and we are affected with similar problems. Since I have fights on daily basis with local "experts" I know this and many other answers to similar question. All those questions are usually stupid but "experts" are not familiar with relevant documents. your question is still "normal' one but what would you say after this:
"You can't use Transition level!"
- This is direct quote . this guy is OJTI with 20+years of experience!Keep well,