NATS EGLL hiring foreign ATCOs?
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Totally agree HD
I did Biggin for 2 years. 1500 plus on a good summer Sunday, depending on how many of the circuits and bumps you forgot to add. 3 parallels, 21 main and grass left & right. Sky were black wi 'em. Heathrow - much more straight forward but still the pinnacle of my career.
In my view you can forget totals or origin; look at movements per runway per day. Heathrow about 680, Atlanta less than 600, Paris, O'hare & Frankfurt all less than 500. Heathrow scheduled at 98% of capacity - requires permanently optimum ATC performance and that's what makes it difficult to succeed.
But if you're good enough and can convince NATS of that they'd be mugs to turn you away. Current approach staffing is about 32 against 40 required. That requirement is certain to increase with MM and R3 and with current pass rates it won't be achieved. Overtime is currently keeping the operation going - if management ever upset the staff and they pull the plug on it Heathrow is in BIG trouble.
.4
I did Biggin for 2 years. 1500 plus on a good summer Sunday, depending on how many of the circuits and bumps you forgot to add. 3 parallels, 21 main and grass left & right. Sky were black wi 'em. Heathrow - much more straight forward but still the pinnacle of my career.
In my view you can forget totals or origin; look at movements per runway per day. Heathrow about 680, Atlanta less than 600, Paris, O'hare & Frankfurt all less than 500. Heathrow scheduled at 98% of capacity - requires permanently optimum ATC performance and that's what makes it difficult to succeed.
But if you're good enough and can convince NATS of that they'd be mugs to turn you away. Current approach staffing is about 32 against 40 required. That requirement is certain to increase with MM and R3 and with current pass rates it won't be achieved. Overtime is currently keeping the operation going - if management ever upset the staff and they pull the plug on it Heathrow is in BIG trouble.
.4
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120.4 Not sure where you got those single runway figures from but if that is the case (and surely not) then Dubai is pretty much the same with about 750 movements a day and 90% of those movements are with single runway ops.
I find this pretty difficult to believe
Wadi
I find this pretty difficult to believe
Wadi
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Vercingetorix.... Those with mega long grey hair (I call it "hilites") will remember the days of London Airways and London Radar. My girlfriend (now my wife of 40+ years) and I visited a few ATC facilities during a holiday in the USA in the 60s and at one busy TRACON I said to one of the controllers something like: "Wow, you guys must be good". he said: "Maybe, but we're not as good as London Radar". For a controller to say that about another unit showed in what regard UK ATC was held - - - in those days.
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Wadi
Gatwick does about 850 off 1
Heathrow does about 1380 off 2 (33% heavies)
Atlanta does about 2700 off 5
O'Hare does about 2700 off plenty (is it 6 or 7 now?)
Paris about 1600 off 4
(Were Heathrow given a 3rd runway it would still only be able to operate at 70% of unrestrained demand (government figure), i.e. it could fill 4.)
.4
Gatwick does about 850 off 1
Heathrow does about 1380 off 2 (33% heavies)
Atlanta does about 2700 off 5
O'Hare does about 2700 off plenty (is it 6 or 7 now?)
Paris about 1600 off 4
(Were Heathrow given a 3rd runway it would still only be able to operate at 70% of unrestrained demand (government figure), i.e. it could fill 4.)
.4
Last edited by 120.4; 27th Jan 2008 at 12:06.
More than just an ATCO
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Seems to me be suffering from thread drift into a "mine is bigger than yours"slanging match.
No truth in the rumour then that the main reason for a new, bigger tower at Heathrow was because more space was needed to park some large egos?
No truth in the rumour then that the main reason for a new, bigger tower at Heathrow was because more space was needed to park some large egos?
Last edited by Lon More; 27th Jan 2008 at 21:36. Reason: spelling
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Same old Argument.
Just as you can take into account the number of runways vs the number of movements, you can also take into account the number of movements per ATCO, the number of testicles per ATCO and the number of moron pilots per 100 movements. These things also have an effect on how busy someone will be and how "good" a controller would be in each different environment.
A comment like
being the only ones able to do the job is laughable when some of these battle hardened residents have been found lacking at other locations around the world. Given time to learn local nuances, I think the majority of ATCOs from reasonably busy airspaces would make the grade in the UK, if only given the opportunity.
A comment like
battle hardened original residents of these Islands
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161R
Thanks for that, didn't have the up to date figures to hand, was just trying ot point out that 'little old' single runway Gatwick achieves a very good rate, sometimes people forget this.
And no lon More, I for one am not comparing my willy to anyone elses, i am an area bod, not airport.
Thanks for that, didn't have the up to date figures to hand, was just trying ot point out that 'little old' single runway Gatwick achieves a very good rate, sometimes people forget this.
And no lon More, I for one am not comparing my willy to anyone elses, i am an area bod, not airport.
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Dear Old Blighty welcomes all who add to the ethnic mix and can meet the necessary standards. Come on over and show us what you've got!
Are these isolated cases or does NATS want them retrained...UK style. Surely that could be better done at a unit? Didn't notice too many foreign controllers when I was at EGPD or West Drayton. Are they put off by training requirements?
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MaC, as far as I'm aware a non-UK ATCO would have to do the College course. I don't think any unit would be equipped, or even have any idea, of the requirements for 'filling the gaps' in terms of getting up to SRG licensing.
This might change in the near future with the European licensing.
This might change in the near future with the European licensing.
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Gonzo
Sounds like it needs a bit of streamlining. A bit insulting really to ask someone who may have been doing the job for 10 years plus to go back to school and do a basic approach or area course. This maybe the reason why there aren't many foreign contollers working for NATS in the UK.
Be it tower,approach or area...the basic tools will be in place with previous experience...and then all it takes is learning the MATS and local procedures. Tweaking the phraseology and such comes from on the floor training.
One for CATC to come up with..a NATS version of an "experienced controller program".
To be fair...NATS probably has enough wannabes applying not to need to recruit from abroad. Correct me if I am wrong.
Sounds like it needs a bit of streamlining. A bit insulting really to ask someone who may have been doing the job for 10 years plus to go back to school and do a basic approach or area course. This maybe the reason why there aren't many foreign contollers working for NATS in the UK.
Be it tower,approach or area...the basic tools will be in place with previous experience...and then all it takes is learning the MATS and local procedures. Tweaking the phraseology and such comes from on the floor training.
One for CATC to come up with..a NATS version of an "experienced controller program".
To be fair...NATS probably has enough wannabes applying not to need to recruit from abroad. Correct me if I am wrong.
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I agree with you, I think NATS has completely dropped the ball on this one. I know myself, and others, have made representations, but nothing's come from it.
We might have enough people applying, but surely an experienced ATCO will have more probability of validating, as long as they're placed at a suitable unit.
We might have enough people applying, but surely an experienced ATCO will have more probability of validating, as long as they're placed at a suitable unit.
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I believe that now, any European with a licence, can apply to SRG (CAA) for recognition of their current licence and experience. SRG will then consult with the issuer of the original licence, and decide what, if any, further requirements must be met to enable "validation" training to commence. Following successful completion of validation training, it should be possible for a UK rating and Unit Licence Endorsement to be issued.
When European Licences are issued, presumably this process should be somewhat simpler........
As for the rest of the world? Who knows!
When European Licences are issued, presumably this process should be somewhat simpler........
As for the rest of the world? Who knows!
More than just an ATCO
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Lon More. 120.4 was only providing facts. Now, go on, tell me that Eurocontrol ATC is intrinsically more difficult than EGTT TC work!
It's not a question as to who has the bigger one. It's simply qualitative difference.
It's not a question as to who has the bigger one. It's simply qualitative difference.
Horses for courses - and I didn't see many shire horses at Maastricht
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One for CATC to come up with..a NATS version of an "experienced controller program".
Can NATS justify the time and effort ? When it would detract from getting the existing ab-initios through, probably not unfortunately. CAP 744 rules OK.....
A bit insulting really to ask someone who may have been doing the job for 10 years plus to go back to school and do a basic approach or area course.
DD
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DD,
I thought you were being posted as you were a retained rights Atco 2 at a downgraded Band 2, Atco 3 unit which has used to hoover up many FAILURES from other units.
I would feel sorry for anyone from outside trying to get into Heathrow,Gatwick,Manchester because Nats can't even treat their own people in other units with any respect.Assessment for valid controllers,in Tower and Radar,OJTI,LCE even Watch Managers.Sneered at by these units
who have for some reason become so self important.Yet the very same units are taking trainees direct from the college with no experience, as ATCO2.
Are these assessments approved by the CAA?
I thought you were being posted as you were a retained rights Atco 2 at a downgraded Band 2, Atco 3 unit which has used to hoover up many FAILURES from other units.
I would feel sorry for anyone from outside trying to get into Heathrow,Gatwick,Manchester because Nats can't even treat their own people in other units with any respect.Assessment for valid controllers,in Tower and Radar,OJTI,LCE even Watch Managers.Sneered at by these units
who have for some reason become so self important.Yet the very same units are taking trainees direct from the college with no experience, as ATCO2.
Are these assessments approved by the CAA?
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TAD - Correct ..... almost. Due to the ridiculous amount of time said "retained rights" posting was taking to my "guaranteed option" (South of border), my eldest offspring had advanced so far down the exam road that staying in Scotland was best option. Only way to do that was to go Area - BUT and it is a big "but" NATS were insisting on a)Radar Skills Course first, b) having to do both Area 1 & 2 modules despite the original promise it would only be the 2nd c) no relocation until valid at next unit.....ie:about 18months down the road of living away from family. Years of - couldnt take any more so gave in. Thats why I'm still here 
rather than on the end of a phone.
DD
- couldnt take any more so gave in. Thats why I'm still here rather than on the end of a phone.DD
Last edited by Data Dad; 28th Jan 2008 at 08:49.