NATS EGLL hiring foreign ATCOs?
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EGLL has grass runways and gooseknecks.. It's amazing how they land half a dozen in each hour!!
<<A bit insulting really to ask someone who may have been doing the job for 10 years plus to go back to school and do a basic approach or area course. >>
It always was like that but I have a vague idea that I was the first ATCO to get into the UK "Ministry" without doing all the stuff at Bournemouth and I was certainly the first at Heathrow who had never attended a UK Primary Course. I was an experienced controller and held an ICAO ATC Certificate for TWR, APC and Area and a UK Licence with validated TWR and APC ratings. When I got through the entry interview I was told I'd have to do a course at Hurn - but I told them I already had a valid UK Licence so they dropped the requirement. Then they said I needed an Initial Mediacl - same response... got a letter telling me I'd passed the medical!! I was then posted to Heathrow but had to do the APC RAD Course at Hurn first. I met some ATCOs there who were on an Adult Primary Course which I would have been on - all were expereinced, either ex-Mil or overseas - but none had protested as I had. I know that my arrival at Heathrow caused a great deal of rest-room discussion and a lot of people were miffed. However, it all worked out OK and I seem to convince them I wasn't entirely stupid by validating the TWR in record time. Radar took somewhat longer due to my inexperience!
<<A bit insulting really to ask someone who may have been doing the job for 10 years plus to go back to school and do a basic approach or area course. >>
It always was like that but I have a vague idea that I was the first ATCO to get into the UK "Ministry" without doing all the stuff at Bournemouth and I was certainly the first at Heathrow who had never attended a UK Primary Course. I was an experienced controller and held an ICAO ATC Certificate for TWR, APC and Area and a UK Licence with validated TWR and APC ratings. When I got through the entry interview I was told I'd have to do a course at Hurn - but I told them I already had a valid UK Licence so they dropped the requirement. Then they said I needed an Initial Mediacl - same response... got a letter telling me I'd passed the medical!! I was then posted to Heathrow but had to do the APC RAD Course at Hurn first. I met some ATCOs there who were on an Adult Primary Course which I would have been on - all were expereinced, either ex-Mil or overseas - but none had protested as I had. I know that my arrival at Heathrow caused a great deal of rest-room discussion and a lot of people were miffed. However, it all worked out OK and I seem to convince them I wasn't entirely stupid by validating the TWR in record time. Radar took somewhat longer due to my inexperience!
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Yep,
same happening in another countries...almost half of europe AFAIK. Supposedly with the ESSAR 5 coming in place changes will be made but nobody really knows how or when -even if it comes into practice in april-.
So until today you are asked to start from scratch no matter what your experience is and wether you have an european licence or not -few exceptions like Eurocontrol, DFS or naviair when they need people ASAP-.
So we'd love to go and show but not allowed yet.
A.
same happening in another countries...almost half of europe AFAIK. Supposedly with the ESSAR 5 coming in place changes will be made but nobody really knows how or when -even if it comes into practice in april-.
So until today you are asked to start from scratch no matter what your experience is and wether you have an european licence or not -few exceptions like Eurocontrol, DFS or naviair when they need people ASAP-.
So we'd love to go and show but not allowed yet.
A.
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TAD,I've been at LHR for nine years. For the first four years of that there was no real assessment selection process. In that five years we had over ten ATCOs come to us from other units...most from 'busy' units such as TC and AC. Only one validated. Since we've introduced a selection procedure the validation rate has increased dramatically.I think the reasons for such a procedure are sound, and to be honest I'd expect that if I wanted to move to another unit. Why shouldn't I?
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I believe that Australia applies the same rigour as UK CAA to it's ATC licencing
Some have said here it is not worth the trouble to go through all this from a resource point of view. Considering the failure rate of ab-initios, the length of time of training and the overall cost, I would have thought that recruiting ATCOs from other suitably busy places with suitably stringent training and testing would make sense.
Doesn't bother me as not interested in living in the UK but still seems wrong.
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The question No3:
Does qualified ATCo at EGLL must know name of companies using that airport or speling is enough?
E.G. BAW- Speedbird or Bravo Alpha Wiskey,
DLH- Lufthansa or Delta Lima Hotel,
Does qualified ATCo at EGLL must know name of companies using that airport or speling is enough?
E.G. BAW- Speedbird or Bravo Alpha Wiskey,
DLH- Lufthansa or Delta Lima Hotel,
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Singapurcanac,
at least here in EC we have to go through a coding/decoding exam on callsigns. Not many failing there at all but it's really easy if you just put a couple hours effort in it. Ppl from LL will know the answer to that but for me seems pretty straight forward that it should, somehow, be done (maybe not an exam per se?).
A.
at least here in EC we have to go through a coding/decoding exam on callsigns. Not many failing there at all but it's really easy if you just put a couple hours effort in it. Ppl from LL will know the answer to that but for me seems pretty straight forward that it should, somehow, be done (maybe not an exam per se?).
A.
Last edited by andrijander; 28th Jan 2008 at 16:00. Reason: spilling
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Gonzo,
From what I can remember Heathrow assessments came in about 93-94.The reason I recall is that I had the same gun as Data Dad had,pointed at my head by Nats in 92.Your going to LL,no choice etc.By 94 you had to be assessed.
Maybe that's for Atco 3,and the ones you are taking about are Atco 2. Perhaps we should introduce an assessment as well for incomers at our little station.Takes as long to validate,double the runways,4 terminals as well and we have to do radar.After all the reason for the procedure is sound,and you would expect that moving to another unit.
From what I can remember Heathrow assessments came in about 93-94.The reason I recall is that I had the same gun as Data Dad had,pointed at my head by Nats in 92.Your going to LL,no choice etc.By 94 you had to be assessed.
Maybe that's for Atco 3,and the ones you are taking about are Atco 2. Perhaps we should introduce an assessment as well for incomers at our little station.Takes as long to validate,double the runways,4 terminals as well and we have to do radar.After all the reason for the procedure is sound,and you would expect that moving to another unit.
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Oi Gonzo!
TAD is correct! As Unit Training Officer, I introduced assessments for prospective Heathrow Tower controllers around 1992. Various NATS and non NATS controllers applied, but unfortunately the majority were turned down. Some made it to the OJT stage, failed, and subsequently validated elsewhere. The notable success we had was Paul T.....g, but assessments did not yield a huge number of successful candidates, possibly because the opportunity was not widely publicised by management at the time.
TAD is correct! As Unit Training Officer, I introduced assessments for prospective Heathrow Tower controllers around 1992. Various NATS and non NATS controllers applied, but unfortunately the majority were turned down. Some made it to the OJT stage, failed, and subsequently validated elsewhere. The notable success we had was Paul T.....g, but assessments did not yield a huge number of successful candidates, possibly because the opportunity was not widely publicised by management at the time.
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Data Dad,
Yes I remember we all had issues with the policy at the time.In fact didn't you calculate it would take until about 2012 for Nats to break even,on this cost cutting policy.Hey it took them until last year to realise it as well.
Atco Two. Well you basically put a dirty great big spanner into Atco 2 being posted out of Atco 3 units.Shortly after LL,KK and CC insisted on assessments,so there wasn't too many places left to go.I can think of another Atco 2,not DD who was being posted from about 90 until this was ''sorted'' in 02.He didn't go anywhere and retired.12 years waiting to be posted.
I
Yes I remember we all had issues with the policy at the time.In fact didn't you calculate it would take until about 2012 for Nats to break even,on this cost cutting policy.Hey it took them until last year to realise it as well.
Atco Two. Well you basically put a dirty great big spanner into Atco 2 being posted out of Atco 3 units.Shortly after LL,KK and CC insisted on assessments,so there wasn't too many places left to go.I can think of another Atco 2,not DD who was being posted from about 90 until this was ''sorted'' in 02.He didn't go anywhere and retired.12 years waiting to be posted.
I
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TAD, yes I was aware of the controversy at the time regarding the assessments, but my priority was to select candidates who had a better than even chance of validating at Heathrow Tower, and not to waste valuable OJT time. What would be the point of causing people false hope and disruption to their lives, only for them to fail during OJT and then possibly return to their original units?
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Well, maybe they were discontinued after your regime ATCO Two....or if not, they might well have continued in name only. Certainly some of the people we got should never have started training with us. In the last few years we've had a much more robust system of assessment.
TAD: Regarding your point about the fact we get trainees posted straight from the college: That's true....However, they have not become used to a particular traffic level, and we do attempt to pick the more promising ones.....we also put them through the equivalent of the old 'six weeks OJT' after which we make a yes/no decision before commencing the UTP.
TAD: Regarding your point about the fact we get trainees posted straight from the college: That's true....However, they have not become used to a particular traffic level, and we do attempt to pick the more promising ones.....we also put them through the equivalent of the old 'six weeks OJT' after which we make a yes/no decision before commencing the UTP.
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For those in power who do not realise it.......................
There are a significant number of experienced ADV and ADI rated controllers out in the non NATS world who hold an APP rating, for whom the current round of "ageism" means they are hugely unlikely to get the chance of an APS rating.
However they may (I would) like to get away from the relatively poorly paid "non state" world and use their experience with NATS.
A wasted resource says I
There are a significant number of experienced ADV and ADI rated controllers out in the non NATS world who hold an APP rating, for whom the current round of "ageism" means they are hugely unlikely to get the chance of an APS rating.
However they may (I would) like to get away from the relatively poorly paid "non state" world and use their experience with NATS.
A wasted resource says I
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Geffen.......TATC? Guess the decision has been moved to HVC....
ProcATCO.....I can't speak for other NATS airfields, but EGLL has taken on ATCOs straight from non-NATS units in the recent past (and possibly also in the near future)..... Liverpool, Southampton (pre-NATS), East Mids etc...
ProcATCO.....I can't speak for other NATS airfields, but EGLL has taken on ATCOs straight from non-NATS units in the recent past (and possibly also in the near future)..... Liverpool, Southampton (pre-NATS), East Mids etc...
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Gonzo wrote:
I would expect to undergo an assesment if I went to any airport, not just Heathrow, if I came from AC or TC (a radar only uit) - it's not surprising you had only one validation out of ten or more applicants..... Heathrow is not a special case... anyone from a radar only unit going to a tower only unit is going to find it more difficult.
DataDad,
It's very offside that they wanted you to do the radar skills side of things, though to tell the truth, I think that if you had gone ahead with it, you would definately have benefited from doind the basic area course (or 'area one') before the advanced ('area 2') course.
Unfortunately this company has a history of making bad decisions in this regard, as alluded to by Gonzo in one of his earlier posts (#43), however I still find it incredibly elitist that Heathrow hand picks student from the college who are deemed to be good enough - thereby inferring that other airports are not as challenging!!
TAD,I've been at LHR for nine years. For the first four years of that there was no real assessment selection process. In that five years we had over ten ATCOs come to us from other units...most from 'busy' units such as TC and AC. Only one validated.
DataDad,
It's very offside that they wanted you to do the radar skills side of things, though to tell the truth, I think that if you had gone ahead with it, you would definately have benefited from doind the basic area course (or 'area one') before the advanced ('area 2') course.
Unfortunately this company has a history of making bad decisions in this regard, as alluded to by Gonzo in one of his earlier posts (#43), however I still find it incredibly elitist that Heathrow hand picks student from the college who are deemed to be good enough - thereby inferring that other airports are not as challenging!!
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anotherthing......
I'm afraid that history shows us that we have to be 'elitist'....your words not mine...
In the 'old days' when all the students going to work at airfields did the APR course, our Head of Training went down to the college, talked to instructors, sat in on a few exercises, and Heathrow generally got the pick of the bunch - i.e. those thought to be most suited to Heathrow...not necessarily the 'best'...(However, I'm convinced that I got Heathrow because I was observed whilst doing a radar fail and made a bit of a mess....they must have decided there and then to send me to a unit where I'd not train on radar!)....the 'bunch' then numbering 8-16 of the APR course.
When the courses were slashed a few years ago, and we were getting trainees who had done Basic then Aerodrome, sometimes there were only two on the aerodrome course, so we had no 'pick'. The situation seems to be slightly better now, but not by much. It's still a decision taken by NSL HQ rather than Heathrow getting what they want and everyone else getting the rest...far from it.
Before the change, the validation rate was 75%.
After the change, the validation rate was 25%.
The first lot of trainees after our tower move are training now, so I guess we'll see if the measures we've taken to redress this have worked.
I'm afraid that, in my experience of the other airports I've visited, and my friends at those units, within NATS, Heathrow is unique.
Right, tin hat on..........
Unfortunately this company has a history of making bad decisions in this regard, as alluded to by Gonzo in one of his earlier posts (#43), however I still find it incredibly elitist that Heathrow hand picks student from the college who are deemed to be good enough - thereby inferring that other airports are not as challenging!!
In the 'old days' when all the students going to work at airfields did the APR course, our Head of Training went down to the college, talked to instructors, sat in on a few exercises, and Heathrow generally got the pick of the bunch - i.e. those thought to be most suited to Heathrow...not necessarily the 'best'...(However, I'm convinced that I got Heathrow because I was observed whilst doing a radar fail and made a bit of a mess....they must have decided there and then to send me to a unit where I'd not train on radar!)....the 'bunch' then numbering 8-16 of the APR course.
When the courses were slashed a few years ago, and we were getting trainees who had done Basic then Aerodrome, sometimes there were only two on the aerodrome course, so we had no 'pick'. The situation seems to be slightly better now, but not by much. It's still a decision taken by NSL HQ rather than Heathrow getting what they want and everyone else getting the rest...far from it.
Before the change, the validation rate was 75%.
After the change, the validation rate was 25%.
The first lot of trainees after our tower move are training now, so I guess we'll see if the measures we've taken to redress this have worked.
I'm afraid that, in my experience of the other airports I've visited, and my friends at those units, within NATS, Heathrow is unique.
Right, tin hat on..........
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Jeez Gonzo,
given many members of this part of Prune hate LL with a passion, regardless of the fact many of them haven't visited LL or had a beer with an LL ATCO for many years (when LL was the nasty place with the nasty rep')
That was a particularly brave post. I stand back and look forward to the show
given many members of this part of Prune hate LL with a passion, regardless of the fact many of them haven't visited LL or had a beer with an LL ATCO for many years (when LL was the nasty place with the nasty rep')
That was a particularly brave post. I stand back and look forward to the show
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Gonzo,
the opposite happened to me. I did the APR course after Area 2, which gave me an advantage over the other students. As I hadn't done aerodrome for two years, when we were given the list of available units, I chose radar units, including Heathrow Approach.
However, after watching me on radar, the head of training at EGLL decided I would be a good candidate for Heathrow tower (He said I handled busy traffic well!) so they paid no attention to my choices, and sent me to LL.
After 2 years of radar, I wasn't quite up to speed on aerodrome, which put me behind the curve. (13 different mentors, all with different standards, didn't help!) I was the first to admit that Heathrow wasn't for me, and luckily I got out. NATS seems to insist on silly postings.
Proper selection could have saved a wasted year.
Sonic
Ps, I was there while you were training!
the opposite happened to me. I did the APR course after Area 2, which gave me an advantage over the other students. As I hadn't done aerodrome for two years, when we were given the list of available units, I chose radar units, including Heathrow Approach.
However, after watching me on radar, the head of training at EGLL decided I would be a good candidate for Heathrow tower (He said I handled busy traffic well!) so they paid no attention to my choices, and sent me to LL.
After 2 years of radar, I wasn't quite up to speed on aerodrome, which put me behind the curve. (13 different mentors, all with different standards, didn't help!) I was the first to admit that Heathrow wasn't for me, and luckily I got out. NATS seems to insist on silly postings.
Proper selection could have saved a wasted year.
Sonic
Ps, I was there while you were training!