Hold RT
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Hold RT
If asked to report "entering the hold".
Do you report when over the beacon on the join.
Over the beacon turning outbound.
On the outbound leg of the hold.
Or ??
Any references would be a help.
Many thanks
Do you report when over the beacon on the join.
Over the beacon turning outbound.
On the outbound leg of the hold.
Or ??
Any references would be a help.
Many thanks
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As soon as you consider yourself "in"; if entering on the inbound leg; ie along the flight track or path then you are "in" commencing the 1st outbound turn; which should be over the beacon or waypoint.
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If told to hold at SAM then one would report holding at SAM when one first passed over SAM.
The reason being that having done so you are now within the holding area and will remain so until cleared further (provided that the speed is correct and you don't make a mistake in the procedure.
Thus ATC can start providing separation based on the aircraft remaining within the holding area.
The entry procedures may not be racetrack in shape but they do keep you within the holding area that is why there are different ones depending on heading at the fix.
Regards,
DFC
The reason being that having done so you are now within the holding area and will remain so until cleared further (provided that the speed is correct and you don't make a mistake in the procedure.
Thus ATC can start providing separation based on the aircraft remaining within the holding area.
The entry procedures may not be racetrack in shape but they do keep you within the holding area that is why there are different ones depending on heading at the fix.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC,
One needs to be careful between the calls of,
"Entering the hold" and "Established in the hold"
The first is purely advisory,
The latter would give the go-ahead for ATC to sort out spacing etc.
kwachon
One needs to be careful between the calls of,
"Entering the hold" and "Established in the hold"
The first is purely advisory,
The latter would give the go-ahead for ATC to sort out spacing etc.
kwachon
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Any references for the above would be most appreciated, gone through Jep and my training notes + CAP413 with no luck.
Ref holding a joint as to joining a hold I guess the answer would be not to tell anyone !!
Ref holding a joint as to joining a hold I guess the answer would be not to tell anyone !!
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From CAP 413 the UK R/T Manual;
I find that "G'CD Holding SAM FL80" works best.
Regards,
DFC
NOTES:
1 All manoeuvres associated with entering the holding pattern are considered
to be part of the holding procedure.
1 All manoeuvres associated with entering the holding pattern are considered
to be part of the holding procedure.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC - IAW the UK R/T manual yes, awesome.......but
Depending on which country you are working / flying / controlling in, the definitions of a Holding Area ( and the required separation from this area) varies from place to place.
If the dimensions of a Holding Area have been correctly calculated then it would encompass the hold itself, along with all of the possible entry procedures (as you have stated).
In some countries that I have worked the separation from the Holding Area only applies to an A/C that has reported "Established in the hold".
Up until that time additional separation has to be calculated for each possible entry procedure depending on which direction the A/C will enter the hold vs other traffic (i.e. same, crossing or reciprocal track!) Makes no sence and is a complete headache to try to determine. Obviously vertical is the easiest separation to use initially given the time needed to determine the correct lateral separation plus nav tolerances plus slant range plus plus
As to the original question, I now ask for "Report Established in the Hold" for the reasons above.
Previously I have only said "Report entering the hold" as it didn't matter how you got into the hold, as our published separations for that particular hold area already include the entry procedure as DFC has stated.
Depending on which country you are working / flying / controlling in, the definitions of a Holding Area ( and the required separation from this area) varies from place to place.
If the dimensions of a Holding Area have been correctly calculated then it would encompass the hold itself, along with all of the possible entry procedures (as you have stated).
In some countries that I have worked the separation from the Holding Area only applies to an A/C that has reported "Established in the hold".
Up until that time additional separation has to be calculated for each possible entry procedure depending on which direction the A/C will enter the hold vs other traffic (i.e. same, crossing or reciprocal track!) Makes no sence and is a complete headache to try to determine. Obviously vertical is the easiest separation to use initially given the time needed to determine the correct lateral separation plus nav tolerances plus slant range plus plus
As to the original question, I now ask for "Report Established in the Hold" for the reasons above.
Previously I have only said "Report entering the hold" as it didn't matter how you got into the hold, as our published separations for that particular hold area already include the entry procedure as DFC has stated.
