Annoying RT

[galaxy flyer]

"Request any direct!" or "Any shortcut available today?"

As if the ATCO enjoys watching us plod along fix to fix when a direct routing is available.

GF

[fireflybob]

When a/c already established on the frequency:-

Bloggsworth Control StarTrek 1234 REQUEST

Startrek 1234 Pass Your Message

Ah Startrek 1234 we were wondering if Flight Level XXX might be available?

Yes Startrek 1234 Affirm do you wish to climb?

Startrek 1234 Affirm we're in moderate chop hear/in the tops (fill in the blanks)

Startrek 1234 Climb Flight Level XXX

Climb Flight Level XXX Startrek 1234

PLEASE why not just say "Startrek 1234 Request Flight Level XXX" - why all this REQUEST etc which takes up a load more air time?

[CRX]

Two pet annoyances for me...
1. The Lufthansa policy of reading back and STARTING with callsign. Why???
'Lufthansa 123 climb flight level 50'
'Lufthansa 123 climb flight level 50' echo echo echo echo....
2. And to agree with Kiltie, the Scottish button lingerer!!! I thought I was the only one to notice. Around 3 secs is what I timed last time I heard him, and several clipped tx's.

CRX.

[BrATCO]

And in France, on a not so quiet frenquency (I guess it works also with other accents) :


- Airr Huatteverr one too tree for, conntacter Bwest, one too niner decimowl fife, goohd by.
...
- Airr Huatteverr one too tree for, conntacter Bwest, one too niner decimowl fife, goohd by.
...
- Airr Huatteverr one too tree for, on ze frrequansea ?
...
- Airr Huatteverr one too tree for, iffer yooh reed mee, squohk hi-dennter !
...
- Are you calling me, Whatever 1234?
- Ahfirmer, Huatteverr one too tree four, conntacter Bwest, one too niner decimowl fife, goohd by.
- Contact Brest, 129.5, Whatever 1234, bye.

[dcb2008uk]

YES! Couldn't agree more, I always think they're questioning whatever I've just said whenever they read it back.

[Coffin Corner]

My pet hates:

A/C: London control Speedy123 FL230 to x
ATC: Speedy123 London Roger, squawk ident
A/C: presses ident button
ATC: Speedy123 Squawk Ident
A/C Squawk Ident Speedy123.

Why do we need to read back SQ ident? Surely you can see it on your radar screens? You have our callsign, a/c type and sq code displaying, along with a flash when we ident, you know where we're coming from, and where we're going.

Another.

A/C: xxx Radar Speedy123 descending FL70 to the centrefix RWYxx, Space Shuttle Charlie with information Xray, QNH 1019, request deconfliction service outside controlled airspace.
ATC: speedy123 roger, descend FL40
A/C: descend FL40 speedy123
ATC: Speedy123 latest information is Xray, QNH 1019, turn left hdg xxx, what service do you require?

A/C: I just told you I had Xray 1019, I just asked for a deconfliction service.

ATC: speedy123 descend altitude 3,000ft, QNH 1019
A/C: descend Altitude 3,000ft, QNH 1019 Speedy123
ATC: speedy123 descend altitude 2,500ft, QNH 1019
A/C: descend altitude 2,500ft QNH 1019 Speedy123
A/C now on finals etc:
ATC: Speedy123 contact tower on 123.450
A/C: Contact Tower 123.450
A/C: xxx Tower Speedy123 ILS etc etc etc
ATC: Speedy123 roger, QNH 1019
A/C: QNH 1019 Speedy123
ATC: Speedy123 cleared to land rwy xxx, surface wind 360/40G80 etc etc.

Sorry, do you want to run the QNH by me one more time, I don't think I got it the last 8 times you gave it to me

[Data Dad]

Stop Stop Stop wrote:

The controller who replies "correct" after every readback of a clearance from the pilot.

Agree with you on this EXCEPT - it is becoming increasingly common for pilots to say 'Was my readback correct?' if you don't do it

DD

[DFC]

It's as if pilots believe ATCOs rejoice in not providing the shortest possible track the circumstances permit

No but I am sure than many will agree when I say certain European countries have controllers that always leave you at the upper level in their sector until you call before passing you to the sector above for higher.

eg

ABC123 climb FL180 report your requested level

ABC123 reports requesting FL380 climbs to FL180 and levels.

After a while and no traffic in sight, ABC123 reports level at FL180

ABC123 contact xxxxx on 134575

New frequency - ABC123 climb FL260 report your requested level

ABC123 reports requesting FL380 climbs to FL260 and levels

After a while and no traffic in sight, ABC123 reports level at FL260

ABC123 contact xxxxx on 134575

So now we make the very anoying call of ABC123 passing FL150 for FL180 in the hope that sometimes the controller will wake up and transfer us to the sector above before we have to reduce our climb or level off where there is no traffic.

The other bit of anoying R/T is being stepped up in 1000ft incriments (which of course we do at a rate of 1000ft per minute or less) and being told that if you can expedite the climb you can get a direct. Feel like saying well if you give me a climb that I can expedite (4 to 6000ft per minute possible) then you we will both get what we want.

[Avoiding_Action]

CoffinCorner

Why do we need to read back SQ ident? Surely you can see it on your radar screens? You have our callsign, a/c type and sq code displaying, along with a flash when we ident, you know where we're coming from, and where we're going.

From CAP493

Pilots/drivers are required to read-back in full messages containing any of the following items:
*SSR Operating instructions

Controllers are to prompt a pilot if a read-back is not immediately forthcoming.

[Torque2]

FireflyB

Code:

PLEASE why not just say "Startrek 1234 Request Flight Level XXX" - why all this REQUEST etc which takes up a load more air time?

I think its because that's how it is depicted in the CAP.....XYZ request..,

thus suggesting that it is an initial request to be followed up by the detail.

I agree with you that it it is much more concise to get the request done in one transmission.

[Chesty Morgan]

How else would the controller know that it was you identing?

[Coffin Corner]

Avoiding Action.

Appreciate that's what CAP493 says, I am instigating that it is old fashioned and out of date, especially with the advent of Mode S and BDS6 compliant.

Wingo.

That may well be the case, but surely it takes the pilot about 2-3 seconds to hit the ident button, and the controller should be concentrating on the call in hand, i.e. if he asks for SQ ident then he'll already be looking at our radar tag. If someone else calls he can still have his eyes on our tag even if a new call is ½ way through it's check-in call etc.

Chesty

Because the controller's tag already shows our callsign, a/c type, squawk code, groundspeed, altitude etc etc. Just because we read it back it doesn't make the controller notice where we are. What makes the controller know where we are is the fact that he already has a mental picture of the traffic in his sector, he already knows we are there, and he can see the a/c tag flash when it idents. It doesn't need us to read back "SQ Ident Speedy123"

[Gonzo]

Acknowledging squawk ident is used to identify you.

Yes, I'm sure that in the future it will become obselete, but without you identing and acknowledging when asked, you technically are not identified. The fact that you are displaying a callsign doesn't mean anything, you might have got airborne using the wrong squawk (not uncommon) and thus be displaying the wrong callsign.

[MIKECR]

Ok...here's my grump. At the particular airfield(shall remain nameless!) I fly from we have one particular controller who preceeds every opening reply with "readibilty 5"(or whatever scale it may be). When departing,having told him i've got information(insert letter) he then replies to the effect that im correct and then proceeds to tell me the whole ATIS again! Having then got my IFR clearance and having told him im ready for departure, im then told to line up on the runway and wait. I then get literally told the whole of ATIS information for a 3rd time, followed by any local procedures/info(already included in the ATIS!!). I then get a great long winded message about the type of service i will receive. Having sat for goodness knows how long on the runway, i finally get clearance to take off. Included in the message "cleared take off" I then get literally everything again for a 4th time! Is this over control or someone who just likes the sound of their own voice?? I may be simpleton Pilot but I dont need to be told the same information 4 times in the space of 10 minutes!

Oh and another airfield I fly from we have an ineresting "leave the apronwith the marshallers instructions" reply to requests for taxi. If I dont reply with the taxi......"with the marshallers instructions" bit then ATC wont accept my reply. I have to repeat the instruction until I include the relevant marshallers bit. Is this normal procedure elsewhere?? Is this proper RT??

[radarman]

A/c: 'Approach, Airtwit 1234 with you, visual with the surface'
ATC: (Thinks): 'So what. Is he trying to drop a hint?'

Next day.
A/c: Approach, Airtwit 1234 with you, fully visual'
ATC: (Taking hint): Airtwit 1234 cleared for visual approach runway 18, QNH 1012'
A/c: Errr roger, it's still a bit hazy so we'd like to stay with radar till we're established on final'.

[Agaricus bisporus]

ole.ole

"Tower, this is the Airtwit. fully established rwy24, fully in reciept of ATIS Charlie (I'm being polite), fully cleared to land...

Fully arsehole.

Wups! Sorry, "the" fully arsehole.

[Kiltie]

"Fully visual" is pointless trivia that should be ignored or acknowledged only by ATC. It is used by lazy pilots instead of a proper request for a visual approach but I am surprised ATC continue to issue a Visual Approach clearance based on this rubbish alone.

Why do many pilots still readback "Climb NOW FL190" as "Climb FL190" ?

Why, when ATC give a conditional "After the landing Easyjet Airbus A319...." do folk readback "after the landing aircraft...."

I don't understand why people have difficulty in reading back exactly what they've just been told but choose to put their own twist on it. Maybe a more useful RT exam should be to reach an acceptable score on crappy 1980s electronic game "Simon" to prove you can repeat what you've just heard.

[Coffin Corner]

Wingo

Of course it isn't a stress, the title of this thread is a giveaway - Annoying RT, this is why I brought it up, I most certainly don't lose sleep over it. But when it's busy and you can't get a word in then what's the point?

Gonzo

1. So how would we have been able to reach an en-route controller with the wrong squawk in the first place? Surely this is picked up by the tower/approach controller?

2. Are you saying if we have the wrong squawk set then it automatically displays an arbitrary callsign?

3. How many a/c is an en-route (area) controller allowed to control at any one time? And what is the norm on a typical day? Anywhere near this limit?

4. If the answer to the question above is something like 13 or 14 then when you ask someone to SQ-I how many others are likely to SQ-I at the same time, in the same place to cause you confusion?

I just don't see why you have to read it back still, if we have checked in, you know our callsign already, we've told you where we are going, and what level we are, you surely have ATC handovers, from one sector to another, and flightstrips, so you know who we are,, if you've asked us to SQ-I and you then see the ident on your screen, so why do we need to read it back? I am still not getting the importance of it.

CC

[DFC]

Why, when ATC give a conditional "After the landing Easyjet Airbus A319...." do folk readback "after the landing aircraft...."

Could it be that there is absolutley no requirement for pilots to have any idea of what an A319 looks like or even what an easyjet aircraft looks like.

Therefore when given a conditional they will line up after the first aircraft to land..........which is why you have to limit it to the first aircraft to land.



-----------

The instruction to squawk ident is a mandatory readback item everywhere. The reason is as gonzo says and you should look up the official words used to describe the procedure which are along the lines of observing an ident from an aircraft which has acknowledged an instruction to ident.

[Gonzo]

CC,

1. So how would we have been able to reach an en-route controller with the wrong squawk in the first place? Surely this is picked up by the tower/approach controller?

Sorry, I was only talking about transfer from tower to departure sector.

2. Are you saying if we have the wrong squawk set then it automatically displays an arbitrary callsign?

In the UK it usually does, because we approach code saturation often, so chances are that any random code will be assigned to another flight, so you show their callsign.

3. How many a/c is an en-route (area) controller allowed to control at any one time? And what is the norm on a typical day? Anywhere near this limit?

I'll leave that to those who work en-route.

4. If the answer to the question above is something like 13 or 14 then when you ask someone to SQ-I how many others are likely to SQ-I at the same time, in the same place to cause you confusion?

Again, it's not the fact that others might sq. ident at the same time, the identification of the aircraft is achieved when the callsign of that flight is observed identing after that flight has acknowledged the request.