UK definition of "Runway Vacated"
niknak
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UK definition of "Runway Vacated"
Is there a CAA definition in the UK of when an aircraft has actually vacated a runway?
I picked up a trainee for issuing take off clearance when the preceeding aircraft was clear of the runway but hadn't reached the Cat One hold for that runway on the taxiway.
This lead to some discussion afterwards and we couldn't find a definition anywhere.
When was training I, at the college and elswhere, it was drummed into us that take off clearance should not be issued until the preceeding vacating a/c has passed the relavant holding point and I'm sure it was in MATS 1, but apparently, not now.
This occured by day, CAVOK, and the a/c were both light/VFR and we have specific procedures for LVPs, but its the principle and whether it's published that I am interested in.
I picked up a trainee for issuing take off clearance when the preceeding aircraft was clear of the runway but hadn't reached the Cat One hold for that runway on the taxiway.
This lead to some discussion afterwards and we couldn't find a definition anywhere.
When was training I, at the college and elswhere, it was drummed into us that take off clearance should not be issued until the preceeding vacating a/c has passed the relavant holding point and I'm sure it was in MATS 1, but apparently, not now.
This occured by day, CAVOK, and the a/c were both light/VFR and we have specific procedures for LVPs, but its the principle and whether it's published that I am interested in.
Okay so I'm mil, but always just used mark one eyeball and supported as and when required by aircrew reporting vacated! Not sure that'll help your u/t though niknak.
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Just a quick one minute google search came up with the following atsin....
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ATS022.pdf
It is from 2002 but seems to show no UK definition unless specified in MATS Part2
If you want to know the ICAO definition which does back you up, then check out the following from 2006...
http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/safety/icao_pri07.pdf
Page 35 of 86, Section A-4, The pilot will, when requested, report “RUNWAY VACATED” only when the entire aircraft
is beyond the relevant runway-holding position.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ATS022.pdf
It is from 2002 but seems to show no UK definition unless specified in MATS Part2
If you want to know the ICAO definition which does back you up, then check out the following from 2006...
http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/safety/icao_pri07.pdf
Page 35 of 86, Section A-4, The pilot will, when requested, report “RUNWAY VACATED” only when the entire aircraft
is beyond the relevant runway-holding position.
Last edited by Neptune262; 8th Nov 2007 at 19:31.
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I remember at college being encouraged to give take-off/landing clearance when the previous lander was off the physical runway, providing there was reasonable assurance that it would not stop in the cleared and graded area. I don't have a reference for this though, and my memory may be fuzzy!
Edited to add: I frequently hear runway vacated reports from pilots whose aircraft are quite blatently still on the runway asphalt. I know you've turned and maybe your nosewheel is on the taxiway, but the rest of your aeroplane isn't.
Edited to add: I frequently hear runway vacated reports from pilots whose aircraft are quite blatently still on the runway asphalt. I know you've turned and maybe your nosewheel is on the taxiway, but the rest of your aeroplane isn't.
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We have a Runway Incursion Monitoring and Collision Avoidance System (RIMCAS) on the SMR. If it detects two things on the runway at once, the labels turn from yellow to orange. The label of the vacating aircraft tends to go back to yellow when the tail of the aircraft crosses the runway edge, which is before the aircraft crosses the CAT1 hold. But we have no defined ‘runway vacated’ point.
CAT3 conditions are of course something else. Even then pilots often report vacated when they’re blatantly not, and they’ve got the lead-off lights changing colour to help them!
CAT3 conditions are of course something else. Even then pilots often report vacated when they’re blatantly not, and they’ve got the lead-off lights changing colour to help them!
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As soon as the whole of the aircraft is off the physical runway, as long as it won't stop in the C&GA.
If we waited unti lit was over the CAT I, we'd have to increase spacing.
As I understand it, SRG is reluctant to dictate on this matter.
If we waited unti lit was over the CAT I, we'd have to increase spacing.
As I understand it, SRG is reluctant to dictate on this matter.
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ICAO PANS-ATM offers some help. There are a number of procedures that refer to runway vacated reports, for example:
What is strange is that although it is explicit that the pilot report must be made only when the whole aircraft has passed the holding point, when a controller is watching this is not specified. Perhaps it is assumed that the controller will make a judgement based on the location of the aircraft....
It might be a useful reference to point pilots towards when they report runway vacated as soon as they have the holding point in sight!
7.9.3.4 When necessary or desirable, e.g. due to low visibility conditions, a landing or a taxiing aircraft may be instructed to report when a runway has been vacated. The report shall be made when the entire aircraft is beyond the relevant runway-holding position.
It might be a useful reference to point pilots towards when they report runway vacated as soon as they have the holding point in sight!
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I remember at college being encouraged to give take-off/landing clearance when the previous lander was off the physical runway, providing there was reasonable assurance that it would not stop in the cleared and graded area. I don't have a reference for this though, and my memory may be fuzzy!
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The new MATS pt1 (effective 22nd Nov) has this new paragraph 7.6.5 An ANSP may consider it valuable in safety terms to define in MATS Part 2 when
aircraft are 'clear of the runway' or 'runway vacated'.
aircraft are 'clear of the runway' or 'runway vacated'.
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Gonzo
The stats are showing that at Heathrow, 8% of arrivals are crossing the threshold "...before the previous has vacated the runway.". I understand that a number of different sensors are being used to measure this. As I assume they are not all 2,500m down the runway does that suggest that you chaps are being... pro-acitve??
point4
The stats are showing that at Heathrow, 8% of arrivals are crossing the threshold "...before the previous has vacated the runway.". I understand that a number of different sensors are being used to measure this. As I assume they are not all 2,500m down the runway does that suggest that you chaps are being... pro-acitve??
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Edited to add: I frequently hear runway vacated reports from pilots whose aircraft are quite blatantly still on the runway asphalt. I know you've turned and maybe your nose wheel is on the taxiway, but the rest of your aeroplane isn't.
Personally - I consider the runway vacated when the aircraft passes the Cat 1 Holding boards, in that respect, any cockpit ambiguity or buffoonery is completely removed!
Seem to remember an incident from several years ago when (at Leeming) a VC10 reported RW vacated and the controller raised the jet Barrier for the Hawk that was following No2 (Remember Mil don't do Vortex Wake unless the wind is <5 kts!). Said barrier stanchion was raised right into the wing tip of the VC 10 leaving some nasty damage. STC ATC did their normal knee jerk reaction and issue some guidance but can't remember what it was.
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If I may be be permitted a little bit of thread drift....
Dizzee's post is very interesting
I always thought that the MATS 1 was an information and procedure manual for controllers but it seems that more and more it includes instructions for unit managers. What am I, as a controller, supposed to do with this new paragraph - go to the boss and say "Hey, why don't you define where runway vacated is"? Or, when there is some sort of incident, say "Yup, it would have been valuable if it had been defined"?
There are ATSINS and other documents that seem to be telling the bosses what they should do. All I want from MATS 1 is what I am supposed to do!
Dizzee's post is very interesting
The new MATS pt1 (effective 22nd Nov) has this new paragraph 7.6.5 An ANSP may consider it valuable in safety terms to define in MATS Part 2 when
aircraft are 'clear of the runway' or 'runway vacated'.
aircraft are 'clear of the runway' or 'runway vacated'.
There are ATSINS and other documents that seem to be telling the bosses what they should do. All I want from MATS 1 is what I am supposed to do!
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I always think it is a mistake to try and write too many things down. I always considered I was paid to interpret what was in the docs in a safe way and put it in to practice. The increasing trend to write down the minutia of life stifles initiative and does not lead to better controllers.
During LVPs, we rely on the pilot reporting vacated when he clears the coded taxiway lighting which finishes at the Cat 1 holding point for the opposite runway ; during visual ops as per whowhenwhy.
UK RotAR say:
‘runway’ means an area, whether or not paved, which is provided for the take-off or
landing of aircraft;
Unless the taxiway between the strip edge and the holding point is "provided for the take-off or landing of aircraft", I don't think it's runway.
‘runway’ means an area, whether or not paved, which is provided for the take-off or
landing of aircraft;
Unless the taxiway between the strip edge and the holding point is "provided for the take-off or landing of aircraft", I don't think it's runway.
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Originally Posted by ATCO Fred
Seem to remember an incident from several years ago when (at Leeming) a VC10 reported RW vacated and the controller raised the jet Barrier for the Hawk that was following No2 (Remember Mil don't do Vortex Wake unless the wind is <5 kts!). Said barrier stanchion was raised right into the wing tip of the VC 10 leaving some nasty damage.
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As far as I'm aware, there's never been a MATS 1 definition but that's only 40 years worth of memory!
SRG aren't totally daft, they do have a "too difficult" box and this subject is firmly in it. When the 2002 ATSIN was issued, it was after a lot of internal debate in ATSD and no consensus. It really meant that if you want a definition of "runway vacated" then write one and your lovely local ATS Inspector will accept it as your gospel - or if you're NATS, not ask for the supporting safety documentation.
The questions have already been asked - does it mean off the physical strip or out of the c&g area. In HIRO (high intensity runway operations) waiting for the c&g would impose growing delays so operators didn't want to do that - commercial pressures? - hence the suggestion that if the definition was really needed they could write it for their unit and circumstances. You could hear the sound of shoulders sloping all over the belgrano!
At a certain airport in the south I was introduced to the concept of "anticipated" vacated - the aircraft was off the physical strip and still moving so that it would be outside the c&g when the succeeding aircraft got to that point on the runway so all was fine. If the vacator was slow or stopped on a right angle turn-off, you waited 'til it was moving properly again.
Seemed fine to me then and still does now. A good pragmatic view and leaving something to common sense instead of rule making for the sake of it.
SRG aren't totally daft, they do have a "too difficult" box and this subject is firmly in it. When the 2002 ATSIN was issued, it was after a lot of internal debate in ATSD and no consensus. It really meant that if you want a definition of "runway vacated" then write one and your lovely local ATS Inspector will accept it as your gospel - or if you're NATS, not ask for the supporting safety documentation.
The questions have already been asked - does it mean off the physical strip or out of the c&g area. In HIRO (high intensity runway operations) waiting for the c&g would impose growing delays so operators didn't want to do that - commercial pressures? - hence the suggestion that if the definition was really needed they could write it for their unit and circumstances. You could hear the sound of shoulders sloping all over the belgrano!
At a certain airport in the south I was introduced to the concept of "anticipated" vacated - the aircraft was off the physical strip and still moving so that it would be outside the c&g when the succeeding aircraft got to that point on the runway so all was fine. If the vacator was slow or stopped on a right angle turn-off, you waited 'til it was moving properly again.
Seemed fine to me then and still does now. A good pragmatic view and leaving something to common sense instead of rule making for the sake of it.
niknak
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Thank you one and all.
Sensible suggestions have been made and we will make the most of them to include the "definition" in MATS 2 as a sensible form of words, most likely to be that "the aircraft which has vacated is continuinging towards the holding point and can be clearly and continuously seen to be doing so".
Thinking about it, it's rather a shame that SRG, who are so keen to give absolutely no discretion to Unit Management on many simple scenarios in modern times, yet they haven't the balls to make a decisions on basic safety such as this.
Sensible suggestions have been made and we will make the most of them to include the "definition" in MATS 2 as a sensible form of words, most likely to be that "the aircraft which has vacated is continuinging towards the holding point and can be clearly and continuously seen to be doing so".
Thinking about it, it's rather a shame that SRG, who are so keen to give absolutely no discretion to Unit Management on many simple scenarios in modern times, yet they haven't the balls to make a decisions on basic safety such as this.