Dover sector 2030 30 Oct
Dover sector 2030 30 Oct
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Dvr sector
Capt Peacock,if by the Dover sector you mean 120.52/120.47 then that is Terminal Control,and yes,it was manic and not very expeditious(apologies for that) lots of stepped on Tx's,but was under control and safe.
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Eg's were not in the equation-exposing a soon to have a validation board trainee was.As I said earlier,not expeditious but he was safe when confronted with the situation-I'll be happy as a pax when he's valid if he copes as well as last night.
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Capt H Peacock
The only way to stop controllers using real aeroplanes to make the world's most exciting video game even more exciting is to file more reports of unsatisfactory service. Get the radio and radar tapes impounded for replay...very simple to do.
You may ask what right a controller has to impose such a service, or for what reason. It may sound slick, but it just contributes to any one of a raft of safety-critical items that have been directly linked to overloaded R/T.
You might also ask the controller how many sectors are joined together [or bandboxed].
We are under intense and unrelenting pressure to move more aircraft with fewer controllers........either file a report or expect the same tomorrow, and the next day.......etc.
You may ask what right a controller has to impose such a service, or for what reason. It may sound slick, but it just contributes to any one of a raft of safety-critical items that have been directly linked to overloaded R/T.
You might also ask the controller how many sectors are joined together [or bandboxed].
We are under intense and unrelenting pressure to move more aircraft with fewer controllers........either file a report or expect the same tomorrow, and the next day.......etc.
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0551666K
I think TCZULU's reply above is a fair and justified explanation.
At TC when someone is nearing the end of their training we try to expose them to very heavy levels of traffic. Not for sport, but as a very salient lesson in working whilst outside the comfort zone.
The reason we do this is because sometimes the sh*t really hits the fan and you have to dig deep.... it would be silly to let someone validate that has not been exposed to this as a quick split etc is not always available.... I am sure you do it at Swanwick as well (?), it is a valuable lesson.
It's nothing to do with manning levels (which you guys have down to a fine art with closing sectors etc - not a dig, an observation as you have to do it more than us) flow etc should be in place for those instances as well.... it's for the few times a year when something happens to change the dynamics in the OPS room that catches everyone unawares... leading to 10 or 15 minutes of frenetic (but safe) work before it can be resolved.
In these situations, it is sometimes safer to keep it bandboxed than trying to hand over a frequency. The chances are we are 'man and boy-ing' the sector at that stage because that is quicker and ultimately safer than splitting.
Captain Peacock, as an aside, a sector can sound a lot busier than it is if pilots do not listen out before transmitting, thus causing them to transmit over someone. Every day we have lots of instances (even when quiet) when pilots butt in after an ATCO has issued an instruction, before the target A/C has been allowed to reply or pilots do not listen out for 5 seconds before transmitting on handover. This causes things to sound much busier than they may actually be.
The way TC sectors work, because of the relatively small dimensions of them, our R/T workload is higher than normal if we are relatively busy because of the interaction between all the airports etc - we have to issue more instructions per A/C to enable us to miss all the crossing traffic - (the level of potential conflictions is naturally higher in a TMA (when track miles are factored in to make it a ratio) than in airways). This again makes things sound busier than they may actually be, but can't always be solved by splitting the frequency.
I think TCZULU's reply above is a fair and justified explanation.
At TC when someone is nearing the end of their training we try to expose them to very heavy levels of traffic. Not for sport, but as a very salient lesson in working whilst outside the comfort zone.
The reason we do this is because sometimes the sh*t really hits the fan and you have to dig deep.... it would be silly to let someone validate that has not been exposed to this as a quick split etc is not always available.... I am sure you do it at Swanwick as well (?), it is a valuable lesson.
It's nothing to do with manning levels (which you guys have down to a fine art with closing sectors etc - not a dig, an observation as you have to do it more than us) flow etc should be in place for those instances as well.... it's for the few times a year when something happens to change the dynamics in the OPS room that catches everyone unawares... leading to 10 or 15 minutes of frenetic (but safe) work before it can be resolved.
In these situations, it is sometimes safer to keep it bandboxed than trying to hand over a frequency. The chances are we are 'man and boy-ing' the sector at that stage because that is quicker and ultimately safer than splitting.
Captain Peacock, as an aside, a sector can sound a lot busier than it is if pilots do not listen out before transmitting, thus causing them to transmit over someone. Every day we have lots of instances (even when quiet) when pilots butt in after an ATCO has issued an instruction, before the target A/C has been allowed to reply or pilots do not listen out for 5 seconds before transmitting on handover. This causes things to sound much busier than they may actually be.
The way TC sectors work, because of the relatively small dimensions of them, our R/T workload is higher than normal if we are relatively busy because of the interaction between all the airports etc - we have to issue more instructions per A/C to enable us to miss all the crossing traffic - (the level of potential conflictions is naturally higher in a TMA (when track miles are factored in to make it a ratio) than in airways). This again makes things sound busier than they may actually be, but can't always be solved by splitting the frequency.
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Thanks all for your input. The issue on the night in question was R/T congestion to the point of saturation. I envisaged the TC controller (it was 120.52) sitting on the edge of his seat.
I think the problem was compounded by the time taken to reply to some of the ATC instructions by some aircraft. The controller then reissued the instruction over the response, and so yet another exchange was stifled. Hence instructions had to be passed 3 times to get through.
I know that it must be immensley frustrating when you don't receive a response immediately to your instructions, but there other things going on whilst you're talking to us. For instance a lot of guys out bound from LGW were 'slow' to respond. Now that very well could be due to the fact that an accelerating aircraft during the first 10000 ft of climb is probably changing configuration, making altimeter selections etc. This must be done as a crew process involving dialogue between the pilots. It could well be that you'll be talking at the guys whilst they're performing a critical task like this.
Perhaps you might just give these guys another moment or two before calling them again, it might just avoid a double step-on. Equally, no matter how busy it is, please can you leave a gap every now and then so that initial callers can get in. Those of us trying to get past the 'no delay' BIG stack had no choice but to join the hold by default, and then expedite down to the bottom. While this is easy in enroute high speed config, back at 220 kts in the hold that becomes more difficult and in many ways undesirable (close to min clean, spoilers out, in the turn so increased stall speed).
I really would love to have you guys along more often to see how things work this side of the mike. We could do with some dialogue.
Alternatively, get NATS to spend some money for more controllers and more MHz.
(We think you're really great BTW
)
I think the problem was compounded by the time taken to reply to some of the ATC instructions by some aircraft. The controller then reissued the instruction over the response, and so yet another exchange was stifled. Hence instructions had to be passed 3 times to get through.
I know that it must be immensley frustrating when you don't receive a response immediately to your instructions, but there other things going on whilst you're talking to us. For instance a lot of guys out bound from LGW were 'slow' to respond. Now that very well could be due to the fact that an accelerating aircraft during the first 10000 ft of climb is probably changing configuration, making altimeter selections etc. This must be done as a crew process involving dialogue between the pilots. It could well be that you'll be talking at the guys whilst they're performing a critical task like this.
Perhaps you might just give these guys another moment or two before calling them again, it might just avoid a double step-on. Equally, no matter how busy it is, please can you leave a gap every now and then so that initial callers can get in. Those of us trying to get past the 'no delay' BIG stack had no choice but to join the hold by default, and then expedite down to the bottom. While this is easy in enroute high speed config, back at 220 kts in the hold that becomes more difficult and in many ways undesirable (close to min clean, spoilers out, in the turn so increased stall speed).
I really would love to have you guys along more often to see how things work this side of the mike. We could do with some dialogue.
Alternatively, get NATS to spend some money for more controllers and more MHz.
(We think you're really great BTW
)
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I think a busy London frequency is an amazing thing to listen to. The controllers must start talking in anticipation of pressing the microphone switch, it happens that fast. With everyone on the ball it works like clockwork, its the idiots not listening out that screw it up. I must admit though, when switching onto a very busy frequency, I do sometimes wat to be called rather than force a check in. Is this good practice? To me it does seem to work well. Many times we have been given our next instruction (climb etc..) without the formal check in first. I have no problem with that.
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I must admit though, when switching onto a very busy frequency, I do sometimes wat to be called rather than force a check in. Is this good practice? To me it does seem to work well. Many times we have been given our next instruction (climb etc..) without the formal check in first. I have no problem with that.
Also as you say, I do find myself starting to talk before hitting the footswitch when it gets busy. I've never really thought about it before but it probably sounds a bit stupid!
I love it when the RT is constant and flowing well when everyone is listening out and in the heat of the moment often find myself cursing those who aren't quite on the ball (letting the occasional colourful 'term' slip out on the RT
). However, that's only ranting in the heat of it all, no grudges are held! I realise that flying the steed comes before talking to usAs autothrottle suggests, familiarisation flights contribute a lot to our understanding of how you work. Having been on a few I was quite shocked to see how busy the pilots are at certain stages of the flight. It would be nice to get them more often but I can't see it happening anytime soon.
Perhaps you might just give these guys another moment or two before calling them again, it might just avoid a double step-on.
Although I have to say, the RT standards of (most) of the home based crews in the London TMA is the only thing that stops it falling to pieces sometimes.
Last edited by Del Prado; 1st Nov 2007 at 23:33.
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If I switch frequency and its manic, if I subsequently hear 'XXX Good Morning, climb FLxx' without checking in first, I think firstly it acknowledges its the first contact (with good morning), secondly the instruction is given (with readback on the way) without any of the wasted RT of the check in.
If that makes any sense to anyone im impressed but I think anyone who has crossed a busy sector will get my drift.
If that makes any sense to anyone im impressed but I think anyone who has crossed a busy sector will get my drift.
More than just an ATCO
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The problem of stepped on transmissions has been around since before even I began,
IIRC there was a device patented ( by a Cathay pilot?) which prevented this. Seems to have sunk without trace
IIRC there was a device patented ( by a Cathay pilot?) which prevented this. Seems to have sunk without trace
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Having worked Area Control for over 25 years I will make the comment that I have noticed an increase in the response time for control instructions. Unless my memory is getting really bad I seem to remember getting pretty prompt responses from air carriers years ago, I will admit the general avaition segment was some times slower. But the last few years it seems there is a long lag (up to 10 seconds) before i get a response for a control instruction. It is sometimes hard to wait for these delayed responses when other control actions are pending at a busy sector. You learn to wait because repeating the transmission steps on the the delayed reply and then things get really messy. I would be inerested into a pilots takes on why responses are delayed. I have discussed this with other senior controllers and they all sense the same situation.
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There was once a suggestion that a device could prevent you pressing transmit when the squelch was open (ie someone else speaking) but I don't believe that it was felt practical eg one open mike and no-one can speak.
Better would be the device that generates a caution when 10 secs of unmodulated carrier is transmitted.
See you up there in a couple of hours.
(yawn)
Better would be the device that generates a caution when 10 secs of unmodulated carrier is transmitted.
See you up there in a couple of hours.
(yawn)
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I think people are missing the point. It is not an open mike situation. It is a delayed response were everyone waits for the response then gives up and steps on it when it comes later than expected.
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I Just Drive
If the frequency is very busy, best IMHO just to wait - we at London (TC and AC) have lots of different things that tell us you are there - coordination messages, departure TV etc etc... as long as you abide by your last given instruction, your flight is safe - even if you cant speak to us (it only gets really dangerous when we start climbing/descendig or vectoring you
)
You are operating in a known traffic environment - even if we cannot speak to you, we are aware of your presence
If the frequency is very busy, best IMHO just to wait - we at London (TC and AC) have lots of different things that tell us you are there - coordination messages, departure TV etc etc... as long as you abide by your last given instruction, your flight is safe - even if you cant speak to us (it only gets really dangerous when we start climbing/descendig or vectoring you
)You are operating in a known traffic environment - even if we cannot speak to you, we are aware of your presence