London helilane access
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
London helilane access
Just curious - why is Kew such a bottleneck approaching from the North when Heathrow are on easterlies compared to westerlies. I'd have thought that aircraft on the ILS are lower at the same position than those in the climb, so is it because the spacing is much tighter on take off? Or someother reason?
Also I was recently cleared recently to Gutteridge but warned of a delay at Kew of 30 minutes and advised that if I flew the reciprocal from City (given my destination it was obvious it was a sight seeing routing) there wouldn't be a delay. Was that on the assumption I would route say to Battersea then return eastwards avoiding Kew? Didn't ask as I decided to route direct to destination given the delays and didn't want to block the freq.
Not complaining! Just interested.
W
Also I was recently cleared recently to Gutteridge but warned of a delay at Kew of 30 minutes and advised that if I flew the reciprocal from City (given my destination it was obvious it was a sight seeing routing) there wouldn't be a delay. Was that on the assumption I would route say to Battersea then return eastwards avoiding Kew? Didn't ask as I decided to route direct to destination given the delays and didn't want to block the freq.
Not complaining! Just interested.
W
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure this is the answer to your question but, landing on the 27s H10 is deemed separated from ILS traffic, so no issues there.
Departing on the 09s H10 between Gutteridge and Kew is not separated from northbound departures so before a helicopter can go round the corner there must be a suitable gap in northbound departures to allow it to do so. It could be quite a wait for most of the day to find a suitable gap of time to get something like an R22 from Gutteridge to Kew.
I assume it's to do with minimum climb out gradients or summat.
Departing on the 09s H10 between Gutteridge and Kew is not separated from northbound departures so before a helicopter can go round the corner there must be a suitable gap in northbound departures to allow it to do so. It could be quite a wait for most of the day to find a suitable gap of time to get something like an R22 from Gutteridge to Kew.
I assume it's to do with minimum climb out gradients or summat.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Romsey
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course, it is all completely unnecessary. If the London CTR was Class D like the airspace associated with the other London airports then these ridiculous restrictions would go away.
Last edited by Mahogany Fighter; 21st Oct 2007 at 18:46. Reason: Spelling!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mahogany Fighter Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Mine is that I'd like to see all airspace Class A. I base that on well over 30 years experience in UK ATC, the last 31 in the Lodnon Control Zone!
HD
With all due respect to your experience, how do you justify your idea for all airspace (all controlled airspace?) to be class A, based on only (mainly?) experience in that class of airspace?
With all due respect to your experience, how do you justify your idea for all airspace (all controlled airspace?) to be class A, based on only (mainly?) experience in that class of airspace?
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You want something ridiculous?
Police helicopter on a task geostationary on a London Class A CTR heliroute physically in the way of a helicopter following heliroute: No separation required, only traffic info and wx conditions.
Police helicopter on task geostationary 1NM displaced from a London Class A CTR heliroute not physically in the way of a helicopter following heliroute: Heliroute closed as not separated.
Now THAT is ridiculous.
Lost count of the number of times SMF spotted loss of separation in severe CAVOK between aircraft off-route in London CTR (West) generating INANE paperwork for jobsworth investigators.
You want something else ridiculous?
London CTR (Central) in confines of Northolt RMA, (say Wembly area), Heathrow controller is required to separate in Heathrow Control Zone. Running out of ideas? Heathrow transfer the traffic to Northolt who may apply reduced separation in Heathrow's CTR within their RMA.
Now THAT is ridiculous.
Heads should roll for condoning such inconsistencies.
London CTR downgrade to Class C is long overdue in view of the amount of helicopter aerial work going on and enormous un-necessary workload generated by Class A compliance. The great pity has been that many of the here-today gone-tomorrow individuals in Ops management have never done the job and have not had intimite knowledge or understanding of the sector or workload involved created by the myriad of cumbersome and incompatible London CTR rules. The whole thing needs cleansing by someone who knows what they are talking about, and there aren't many of those about.
Police helicopter on a task geostationary on a London Class A CTR heliroute physically in the way of a helicopter following heliroute: No separation required, only traffic info and wx conditions.
Police helicopter on task geostationary 1NM displaced from a London Class A CTR heliroute not physically in the way of a helicopter following heliroute: Heliroute closed as not separated.
Now THAT is ridiculous.
Lost count of the number of times SMF spotted loss of separation in severe CAVOK between aircraft off-route in London CTR (West) generating INANE paperwork for jobsworth investigators.
You want something else ridiculous?
London CTR (Central) in confines of Northolt RMA, (say Wembly area), Heathrow controller is required to separate in Heathrow Control Zone. Running out of ideas? Heathrow transfer the traffic to Northolt who may apply reduced separation in Heathrow's CTR within their RMA.
Now THAT is ridiculous.
Heads should roll for condoning such inconsistencies.
London CTR downgrade to Class C is long overdue in view of the amount of helicopter aerial work going on and enormous un-necessary workload generated by Class A compliance. The great pity has been that many of the here-today gone-tomorrow individuals in Ops management have never done the job and have not had intimite knowledge or understanding of the sector or workload involved created by the myriad of cumbersome and incompatible London CTR rules. The whole thing needs cleansing by someone who knows what they are talking about, and there aren't many of those about.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ via the UK
Age: 49
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also thought that the Heathrow zone should have been class D.
I seem to recall Gatwick's zone is..and there dosen't seem to be much of an issue there.
My biggest moan was police ops over Twickenham on a gin clear 100 Kms vis no clouds CAVOK day being considered "not separated" from arrivals...when traffic info suffices perfectly to all concerned. It works everywhere else!?
Either that or close all the other airfields around London..Battersea, White Waltham, Elstree etc etc. That would then rid you of most of the originating traffic that causes these problems...and all would be well......maybe?
I seem to recall Gatwick's zone is..and there dosen't seem to be much of an issue there.
My biggest moan was police ops over Twickenham on a gin clear 100 Kms vis no clouds CAVOK day being considered "not separated" from arrivals...when traffic info suffices perfectly to all concerned. It works everywhere else!?
Either that or close all the other airfields around London..Battersea, White Waltham, Elstree etc etc. That would then rid you of most of the originating traffic that causes these problems...and all would be well......maybe?
